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First Race With SCCA

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#1
davearm

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Finally managed to do a race weekend with the SCCA after 3yrs of racing NASA, but unable to coordinate my schedule with the local SCCA race schedule. Had a great time at the MARRS/SARRC race at VIR. As a first timer at a SCCA event, I was prepeared for some differences from NASA, and there were some things that they do better than NASA, and the opposite is also true. The field of 50 Spec Miata's was truley awesome. Great racing through out the field both days, as I was mid-pack on Sat, and towards the tail end Sunday (a result of a missed shift/spin on lap 1).
Two things I would like to point out. First, after all the discussion on this board about the stewards not policing metal to metal contact, there seemed to be very close scrutiny of any contact. There was also a meeting of all SM drivers after qualifying on Sunday to warn everyone that any rough driving, or avoidable contact would not be tolerated.
Also, and more importantly to myself, I want to thank the 20 drivers behind me for managing to to miss me as I spun coming out of turn 5 on the 1st lap, coming to rest smack in the middle of the track, watching the entire rest of the field go right or left of me without hitting me, and allowing me to continue my race with no damage except to my underwear.

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#2
JimK

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How did the field size compare to NASA?

#3
davearm

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How did the field size compare to NASA?

NASA Mid Atlantic usually has between 20-25 SM, and 6-8 SSM. This was a combined event for 2 SCCA regions (MARRS,SARRC). I am not sure how many SM show at a SARRC event, I think it may be variable depending on track, but MARRS usually has around 40-50 per event, or thats what I have read (plus close to the same number of SSM'S).

#4
Keith Andrews

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Congrats on a great weekend. I did the same thing with the SCCA in March at VIR. The Carolina Cup is coming up at the end of the month at CMP. Come on down.
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#5
FTodaro

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there is another vary important distinction between SCCA and NASA that Bit me at my last NASA race. the racing rules in NASA allow a car that is overtaking you to force you to go two wheels off at the apex . they only have to leave you 3/4 of the track once they get the nose ahead. On our second turn on the first green lap going 3 wide I was on the outside of the turn, the car in the middle,his door was to my front tire, he went to the apex and we hit, I got "at fault" for it.

SCCA on the other hand, the rule reads you have to give your competitor racing room, which I interpret to mean they can't put you in the grass if the get a nose ahead of you.

Big difference in my mind.

Frank
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#6
Todd Green

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. they only have to leave you 3/4 of the track once they get the nose ahead. On our second turn on the first green lap going 3 wide I was on the outside of the turn, the car in the middle,his door was to my front tire, he went to the apex and we hit, I got "at fault" for it.


Just two clarifications: The rule reads "at least three quarters of one car width" just in case someone new mistakes "track" for the racing surface and not the track-width of your car as I assume you meant. Also the rule reads that they need to have their front wheel next to the driver, not a "nose ahead".

FWIW I don't like NASA's rule for club racing. There is no reason (figuratively speaking) to be running each other into the dirt, IMO.

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#7
FTodaro

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Just two clarifications: The rule reads "at least three quarters of one car width" just in case someone new mistakes "track" for the racing surface and not the track-width of your car as I assume you meant. Also the rule reads that they need to have their front wheel next to the driver, not a "nose ahead".

FWIW I don't like NASA's rule for club racing. There is no reason (figuratively speaking) to be running each other into the dirt, IMO.


Thank you for clearing that up. yes it is the tire to the door, from in the car it looks like a nose ahead, and I meant to say 3/4 of a car width, I really really do not like that rule on the first out lap on the first set of turns when running 3 wide or more its very difficult to judge just where a competitor is going to end up and going into the grass at that point could cause more problems than its worth. once you have the group thinned out a bit and its you against one competitor who you are racing with you can anticipate the flow of whats happening, that first out lap as you know can be pretty hectic.

This cost me a one race suspension. I am the silver /w black strip car on the right. By the way I do not blame the competitor who I hit, he is following the rules, its the rule I do not like. Should be racing room is required.

also to be fair to the officials suspending me, the criticism of my driving was that as the track turned slightly to my left I should have been turning more to go to the left and was likely focused on the driver to my right. Maybe so, I take responsibility for it, I just did not think it was necessary to find fault and suspend me. But you figured out by now I am a bit sour grapes over the deal.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Rhc3VeVymtY

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#8
dmathias

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Frank, I think you got boned by the officials, the other car was at least as much at fault as you. I don't see that you did anything wrong.

I glad they offer to work at events, but let's not forget the officials at club races are not professionals in that field.

Bogus call.

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#9
dstevens

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also to be fair to the officials suspending me, the criticism of my driving was that as the track turned slightly to my left I should have been turning more to go to the left and was likely focused on the driver to my right. Maybe so, I take responsibility for it, I just did not think it was necessary to find fault and suspend me. But you figured out by now I am a bit sour grapes over the deal.


Yep, you got hosed. Cars touch sometimes. That's a fact of racing. If he was a nose in front at turn in you'd already lost the line. After looking at it a few times it looks like he drifted into you. That's just racing. It is nice that people volunteer but we don't get to race for free. We're spending thousands and a minor incident such as that shouldn't result in a suspension. Sounds like an official being a bit overzealous, but to be fair, that also happens when they are being paid. Bum call, you got screwed.

#10
dmathias

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NASA pays workers - doesn't make them professional officials. B)
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#11
Caveman-kwebb99

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Frank, I think you got boned by the officials, the other car was at least as much at fault as you. I don't see that you did anything wrong.

I glad they offer to work at events, but let's not forget the officials at club races are not professionals in that field.

Bogus call.

-Denny



Denny your so conflicted, :huh: you are just so overwhelmingly happy that NASA has this new procedure and its the greatest thing since sliced bread! Now your saying they arent doing the job right!

This is the kind of thing that is going to happen anytime there has to be a silly report filed for a racing incident. I for one like the SCCA way myself for this!!!! talk to your competitor and if you cant work it out file a protest!!!!!!! Seems simple to me!!!! And by the way I thought Frank got hosed and told him so, but I also watched this Vid and you can now see all what NASA was looking at.

I feel that both clubs rules should read that every competitor should be fully willing and able (capable might be a better word here) to drive side by side through the entire track for one full lap giving proper racing room to all competitors meaning 4 wheels on the track!

Here is the Vid

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#12
dmathias

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Not conflicted at all. Both clubs need improvement, as do the wingnuts with the "checkers or wreckers" attitude. I think NASA's report system is better than SCCA's nothing. Never said it was perfect.

My personal experience in the SCCA: talking about it with the 'other guy' generally does not change behavior, and if you are going to protest you only have 30 minutes from the end of the race to do it, so it's kind of an either/or deal. I've protested violation of racing room several times just to be told "that's racing". Volunteer workers seem more interested in the beer party. That's understandable, and it varies by hosting region.

My new system is I race others the way they race me. If we can all go side-by-side and pass without contact - perfect! Nothing I enjoy more. But if a driver pushes their way through and bangs fenders/doors to get by - well - they shouldn't be surprised if they end up on the receiving end later on. Just sayin. <_<
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#13
Matthew Wolfe

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My opinion, racing room, give it to your competitors. It doesn’t mater what the rules are, if you can only beet you competitor by running them off the road you are not really beating them.

In the vid the passing car had plenty of room to his right but chose to go left to squeeze out the car being passed. This resulted in hitting the car being passed right wheel and turning it slightly right or at least holding it straight whale the track turned left. All of this spun the passing car, his fault for trying to bully someone else on the track. This may not have been his intention but it is how it looks in the video. If he was just not aware that the other car was there than he needs to work on his situational awareness.

#14
dmathias

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I feel that both clubs rules should read that every competitor should be fully willing and able (capable might be a better word here) to drive side by side through the entire track for one full lap giving proper racing room to all competitors meaning 4 wheels on the track!


Will there be a test for that? :P
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#15
HoneyBadger - BrianW

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I have only been racing since the beginning of the year, so take this for whatever its worth... In the Texas region there are drivers that will give you room to race and there are drivers that will run you off the track, regardless of the rules. I have not personally seen a difference in behavior in the same drivers when switching between SCCA and NASA.
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#16
dmathias

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+1 @Brian
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#17
dstevens

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I put Frank's clip in Final Cut and started looking at it frame by frame. It's very obvious he was pinched out. Frank holds his line and at 00:00:28:26 you can see the pinch start to happen. By 00:00:29:09 the red car has pinched up along side by about 2 ft or so. Frank has maintained his line relative to the edge of the track. Frank is being forced out and at about 00:00:30:20 he's out of track and the red car is touching his right front. At 00:00:30:25 red car start to unweight on the driver side. At 00:00:31:01 there is hard contact but red car doesn't seem to be moving back inside in spite of having what seems to be a two car wide space on the inside. From the stills based on the attitude of the red car he's either pushing hard are trying to give Frank an tutorial on grass mowing. All this time Frank has maintained roughly the same distance from the edge of the track. His car look pretty neutral, not binding one way or the other. At 00:00:31:06 it's all over for the red car. For 2 secs he's kept his foot in it while pinching Frank outside. Red car is fully around at 90* to the circuit at about 00:00:31:26 while Frank has still maintained the line relative to the edge of the track. It's only as the red car gets past the 90* mark that it pushes Frank back right toward the center of the track.

#18
dmathias

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I should have said that the North Carolina Region/SCCA is a great region with awesome volunteers, and one of the reasons I enjoy attending their events so much.

-Denny
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#19
FTodaro

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I put Frank's clip in Final Cut and started looking at it frame by frame. It's very obvious he was pinched out. Frank holds his line and at 00:00:28:26 you can see the pinch start to happen. By 00:00:29:09 the red car has pinched up along side by about 2 ft or so. Frank has maintained his line relative to the edge of the track. Frank is being forced out and at about 00:00:30:20 he's out of track and the red car is touching his right front. At 00:00:30:25 red car start to unweight on the driver side. At 00:00:31:01 there is hard contact but red car doesn't seem to be moving back inside in spite of having what seems to be a two car wide space on the inside. From the stills based on the attitude of the red car he's either pushing hard are trying to give Frank an tutorial on grass mowing. All this time Frank has maintained roughly the same distance from the edge of the track. His car look pretty neutral, not binding one way or the other. At 00:00:31:06 it's all over for the red car. For 2 secs he's kept his foot in it while pinching Frank outside. Red car is fully around at 90* to the circuit at about 00:00:31:26 while Frank has still maintained the line relative to the edge of the track. It's only as the red car gets past the 90* mark that it pushes Frank back right toward the center of the track.

I hesitated posting this clip, because i really do not want to place "Blame" on either driver, My attitude is that this should have been called a racing incident, Shit happens in racing, I can live with that, I see no intentional conduct or butheadness. I just think it should not have resulted in a suspension for me, only because I am trying to figure out what lesson I should have learned. I am afraid if i get to that place again I will do the same thing and try to stay track left. So the comment to me was when I got suspended was "i don't like the rule either but I have to enforce it". Ok, then the rule is no good in my opinion, if you have to issue penalty when one is not due.
Under SCCA I could have argued "Racing Room" I assume no suspension for me then.

The other thought is that this rule should only be followed when you are outside the opening out lap. It ought to be racing room given till its sorted and then go at battling for position. Its a pretty high standard to put on a driver at the start of the race 3 wide.

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#20
MPR22

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I like the NASA races and most of the rules, but the passing rule just creates unnecessary contact. I agree with Brian W, most drivers will drive the same way regardless of the ruels, but I don't want to get suspended because someone doesn't like the fact that I am passing on the inside and they chop down on me. In an SCCA race, if that happens they get to go for a ride or they get a talking to for not giving racing room, in NASA I have to back off or get suspended. Oh by the way, in a high speed turn there is no room or time for a lift on my part because I will spin or get hit by the chopper. Again not something they should encourage. If we can't pass without the fear of the chop down manuver then we are forced to pass on straights only. That isn't racing that is a f***ing glorified DE day. :(
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