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#1
Matt813

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Hey guys,

I've done a few DE's in my father's Boxster and would like to get a vehicle to do DE's in and possibly more. A Miata seems to be the best option due to a myriad of factors including (but not limited to) price, participation, information available, etc. I am however unsure as to whether I should try to find jut a cheap, stock used car (preferably with a hard top and/or other items that would be added to make it SM) or spring for a cheaper already-built SM.

Pros of purchasing stock:
-Get to know what/when everything was installed and the condition
-Learn about the car (tearing down and build up)
-Less initial outlay of $$ (ability to build up as money allows)
-Passenger seat for HPDE's
-Ability to drive to/from track until I can find a suitable trailer/storage area.
-Ability to adapt to any rule changes from now until my first race without much trouble

Pros of purchasing already built:
-Less money overall
-All the right parts already on
-(Hopefully) Well sorted already
-Paint/cosmetics done

One thing I am undecided on is when it comes to trailering, open/enclosed. I like the idea of having an enclosed trailer so I can leave everything in the trailer/at the track but it is also going to be a good amount more expensive than buying an open car trailer. It seems that 20' is the entry level length for an enclosed car trailer, would I be correct in assuming this?

Also, seeing as I've only done a few DE's, I still have the requirement that an instructor ride with me. If I were to buy a SM right away, I'd have to spend the extra money to install a similar seat/harness system in the SM in order for the instructor to be on board.

Thanks for the advice guys, I know some of my questions have been answered so I'll keep searching and post again WHEN I've come up with more questions/issues.

Matt

#2
davew

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This has been discussed many many times both here and on specmiata.com. Use the search function, it is your friend.

To address your specific questions

Pros of purchasing stock:
-Get to know what/when everything was installed and the condition
This info should be supplied by the seller. Especially if purchased through a pro shop

-Learn about the car (tearing down and build up)
Very valuable knowledge to be gained. Great sense of pride when finished

-Less initial outlay of $$ (ability to build up as money allows)
Much greater time invloved. Anticipate 300 hours start to finish for a pro quality build,if you plan on doing all the work yourself.
If you spend 8 hours every Saturday and every Sunday, plus 2 hours every night working on the car that is only 26 hours per week. That means a build period of 3 months. 26 hours per week, EVERY week, is very difficult to do. If you can do 1/2 that, consider yourself lucky. Life gets in the way of building race cars.

-Passenger seat for HPDE's
Most Sm's will accomidate a pass seat

-Ability to drive to/from track until I can find a suitable trailer/storage area.
Most SM's are still streetable, not comfortable, but it can/has be done.

-Ability to adapt to any rule changes from now until my first race without much trouble
To my knowledge there are no major changes in the pipeline



Pros of purchasing already built:
-Less money overall
Especially if buying used. But be prepared to have $15k invested in a reliable car with updates. Lower purchase price, usually means more cost to make reliable and up to date.

-All the right parts already on
Hopefully?????

-(Hopefully) Well sorted already
Hopefully????

-Paint/cosmetics done
rarely is a used car cosmeticly perfect. Unless it is a top of line car.

I recomend that you get very comfortable with the search function on this website and the old specmiata.com. Read a lot, visit the track and get to know some people. Read the rulebook several times. Purchase and read my book, available at the website below

Welcome and good luck
Dave

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#3
dmathias

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There are several shops advertising "caged rollers". If I was starting over that's the route I would go, with a 1999 of course.
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#4
dstevens

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Yep, get Dave's book and read it before you do anything else. Time on the build has been my biggest hurdle. I'd planned to do 20 + hours a week but some weeks I can only get in a few hours due to work and other commitments. This week was good, but some weeks it bogs down.

Other issues to consider are tools and depth of ability. This isn't something that's easily done with a basic set of hand tools. It's my third production based race car build and over the last 3-4 years I've been able to amass the tools it takes to do something like this. Of course you can job some of it out if you have the budget.

If you are new to wheel to wheel racing and haven't yet maintained or built a race car it's probably best to buy something and develop a relationship with a pro shop or seasoned racers at your home track and get the basics of racing and maintenance down before jumping into a build. I also wouldn't drive the race car to and from the track. If you don't have a trailer you can get a local shop or other racers to help you out. When you crash or the car breaks, and that's a when, not an if, because both of those will happen at some point racing you'll be stuck at the track. Guys do it but I wouldn't.

#5
Caveman-kwebb99

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Hey guys,

I've done a few DE's in my father's Boxster and would like to get a vehicle to do DE's in and possibly more. A Miata seems to be the best option due to a myriad of factors including (but not limited to) price, participation, information available, etc. I am however unsure as to whether I should try to find jut a cheap, stock used car (preferably with a hard top and/or other items that would be added to make it SM) or spring for a cheaper already-built SM.

Pros of purchasing stock:
-Get to know what/when everything was installed and the condition
-Learn about the car (tearing down and build up)
-Less initial outlay of $$ (ability to build up as money allows)
-Passenger seat for HPDE's
-Ability to drive to/from track until I can find a suitable trailer/storage area.
-Ability to adapt to any rule changes from now until my first race without much trouble

Pros of purchasing already built:
-Less money overall
-All the right parts already on
-(Hopefully) Well sorted already
-Paint/cosmetics done

One thing I am undecided on is when it comes to trailering, open/enclosed. I like the idea of having an enclosed trailer so I can leave everything in the trailer/at the track but it is also going to be a good amount more expensive than buying an open car trailer. It seems that 20' is the entry level length for an enclosed car trailer, would I be correct in assuming this?

Also, seeing as I've only done a few DE's, I still have the requirement that an instructor ride with me. If I were to buy a SM right away, I'd have to spend the extra money to install a similar seat/harness system in the SM in order for the instructor to be on board.

Thanks for the advice guys, I know some of my questions have been answered so I'll keep searching and post again WHEN I've come up with more questions/issues.

Matt


Well I have a 2003 with clean title and 33k original street miles I am finishing the build now, and would be willing to sell her and finish it to your specs. It is caged, with race seats, belts, nets, guages, radiator, springfield dyno exhaust, Spec Miata suspension. Still street legal as well if your not in a state that tests for the CAT. If interested send me a private message. Can make this car nationaly competitve or a great mid pack racer depending on what you want!

K. Webb
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#6
Tom Hampton

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Other issues to consider are tools and depth of ability. This isn't something that's easily done with a basic set of hand tools. It's my third production based race car build and over the last 3-4 years I've been able to amass the tools it takes to do something like this. Of course you can job some of it out if you have the budget.


Well....I've done everything with nothing but basic hand tools (3/8" and 1/2" drive sockets, impact sockets, and metric box and open end wrenches, and a torque wrench)...until I got to the bell housing bolts. I had to purchase a $99 18V impact driver for that and an impact universal joint adaptor. I don't even own an air compressor. However, when working on a 20 year old car...don't even think about picking up a 12-pt wrench (box end or socket). You're just asking to round over a head. I even had to take a hammer to my flare-nut wrench to tighten up the clearance on the hydraulic lines. It wasn't sloppy, but that clutch master cylinder line was really frozen in there.

I did my own cage, that required a tubing notcher ($100 purchased), and a 120Amp MIG welder (borrowed). But, there isn't much that can't be done with more exotic tools. Roll-cage, Engine, transmission, and differential overhauls are the only things that come to mind.

If you are considering building...you can see what the process has been like for me. See the link in my sig for my build blog. I don't claim that it is the best, or fastest, or only way to go about it. It is just my chronical of how I'm doing it. It is 100% complete, I've left nothing out...including all screw ups along the way. This is the second car I've build from the ground up (first racecar, though). Plus i've done all my own vehicle maintenance since I was 13 yrs. So, I have a decent car-knowlege.

I bought the DONOR last August. I started working on it heavily in October. I've spent most weekends since October on the car (8 hours per day...Sat and Sun) with very few breaks (tgiving, xmas/nye..and a couple single day weekends for family parties). I don't work on it during the week, but is has consumed almost all of every weekend....Much to the wife's occasional chagrin. She's been very patient, and has even helped on several jobs. But, that is a definate factor to consider when building your own.

I figure I've got about 400 hours into it so far. Some of that is learning curve on cage-building (or cage kit building). Some of that is me tinkering, not really being "in a rush", just enjoying my Saturday afternoon in the shop. I'm nearing the end-game of the stage 1 car prep --- titled "SAFE AND RELIABLE". I have intentionally not done ANY "go fast" mods.

I have $10k in the car at this point, in round figures. that includes the donor cost, and all major/minor purchases. I still have a few "K" to go by SuperSchool in December. If you go the build route, get your car and get a mazdaspeed account. But, know when Mazda is more expensive! DON'T BE IN A RUSH. Maybe its my own bent, but I don't come home to have a schedule, and a deadline. They happen anyway, but IMHO you don't want to say on the day you buy your Donor..."I'm going to have this car on the track in X months." You'll be hurried, stressed, out of money, and in the end: wrong.

Expect to spend $15K. Figure your monthly budget for parts. Assuming you are financially limited: Divide 15k by that budget....that's how long you should plan to take. If that's too long...reconsider purchasing a built car. If that's not an option....enjoy the longer range outlook. Keep the car running, and get it back to a safe&reliable street car status. Once you do that you can go run HPDE events on the track as a street car. You'll still learn a LOT.

Buy parts as the budget dictates. I did, and would recommend again...rebuild the car from the bottom up. Start with the four corners and work your way up. Pick small jobs that you can start and finish quickly...and end with a drivable car in one or two weekends. Use the car as a Daily Driver. You'll learn about how the car handles. You'll be able to see how your changes affect the car. When you finally add the cage...you'll be able to feel how much stiffer the chassis is (and therefore how much more important the fine details [camber/caster/toe/spring rate/etc] on the corners matter.

Okay, I guess that's quite a bit or rambling from me. I guess I'm feeling a little reflective since I've reached a "milestone" of sorts this month: As of Saturday, the car is mechanically "complete" and ready for the track. I plan to slow down for a month or two and just have fun driving in some HPDE events. I've enjoyed the process. Heck I'm still ejoying it. If I had to do it all over again, I would not go back and buy a prebuilt car.

-tch
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#7
Matt813

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Appreciate the responses and different viewpoints guys!

#8
Alberto

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Many race cars don't have a title so if you plan on driving them on the street to/from events...
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#9
jeopardyracing

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Matt,

I was on a track very similar to yours: was doing track days for 4 years, then graduated to SCCA racing this year. Track day and race cars are very different car builds and one doesn't necessarily 'grow' into the other - take a look at how different my two builds were; I've done both builds. Here are links to my blog, where I documented both:

Main blog link (includes everything): http://blog.richramblings.com/

Compilation of blog entries documenting a track day build: http://blog.richramb...om/main/?p=1801

Compilation of blog entries documenting a race car build (SSM): http://blog.richramb...me=specmiatassm

With that said I'm going to be very opinionated and maybe even draw some fire when I give you this advice:

If you are 100% committed to racing, don't do what I did and build a car up front. Rent a car for comp school (and buy the insurance), then buy a used race car as your first race car for your rookie season. Do a season or two with your used race car, then build one later. My rationale: In your rookie season your skills won't be honed enough to make the difference between the ideal build and a used race car matter. Skill gaps will be much bigger than equipment gaps, unless you are a very rare, undiscovered road racing phenom. More importantly, you'll have a ton to think / worry about as you start racing and you don't want to add the potential loss of a winter's worth of your own blood sweat and tears (and lots of money) to that list (trust me on this). You'll be more confident without the worry of wrecking your race car build. Once you've developed your skills, equipment gaps may start to matter more and you can tackle your own build and sell your used car to finance it.That's my (highly opinionated) race advice. Now the other track you can take: start in track days first.

If you are not 100% committed to racing, buy a street Miata and 'build' it into an HPDE car. After some track days, or a season or two of track days,rent a race car and go to comp school to see if you like it. If you aren't ready to jump into racing after comp school, you'll still have a good track car to continue enjoying and won't have locked into a big investment. Plus you can go back to track days and brag in the paddock that you're on up on everyone else because you've graduated from comp school :)


In your case I prefer this second approach because track days and racing are very, very different. My answer sound very biased, I realize, but that's what I would do if I could go back in time having gone down the same path you're heading down.

Rich Hoyer
SSM #47 WDCR SCCA

SM #45 NASA Mid Atlantic Region


#10
Cy Peake

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I built my first 99 myself and used it for HPDE for one season. Then removed the pass seat, added the fire system, transponder, bought a bunch of sets of wheels and went racing. Add a truck and trailer to the budget for that first season of racing. I stuffed that car into the wall ass end first and bent the tub but was able to win a race and finish the season with it. BUSY winter transferring everything over to another 99 tub and then got my nose chopped off halfway through last season through no fault of my own. A couple days on the frame machine and it was mostly back to race-ready. Lots of time spent on various little projects this past winter. Just avoided a major wreck in the first race of the season last weekend and am currently trying to decide how competitively I want to push this season in the opening laps of races (considering how expensive it gets when things start going CRUNCH).

My advice is to buy a race-ready car, learn to drive and race it for a season or two and then step up to the plate with a healthy budget to build your own car if it's something you really want to do. HPDE's with point-to-pass aren't on the menu anymore as they're WAY boring in comparison to racing.

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#11
jeopardyracing

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...and the fear of exactly this scenario is what made me pretty darn timid for the first races of my rookie season, and downright alarmed during comp school. At this stage I'm glad I did the build, but it's taken until now (after comp school and MARRS 3).

One other decision for Matt is whether to go SM or SSM (cough, cough...SSM.....).

On the issue of HPDE's being boring - I've read a lot of HPDE put-downs on these Spec Miata forums and I don't agree with them, having done both racing and HPDE. It's true that racers will find track days boring, but that's because of the personalities involved. The two are very different, with racing appealing to more aggressive, adrenaline junkie personalities. People have written things here like 'racing is sex, HPDE is masturbation...' That's bunk. They're both fun but appeal to different personalities. I am glad I changed to racing and true, I could never go back, but I understand perfectly well the folks who prefer to set up and flog their cars on the weekends in a more controlled environment. They're out for camaraderie, the right level of excitement, and the fun of tuning the car. Racing is a big step up in the chaos factor and a big step up in the competitive dimension. To each his/her own.

Rich Hoyer
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#12
Joe Benoit

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Matt,

I had the same problem about 8 years ago. I was driving a borrowed Porsche and doing HPDE's with it. Always afraid of wrecking it. I also wanted to race so I joined SCCA and volunteered working grid and the turns. I learned alot about the club and the car classes doing this. In the end I went with SM and never looked back. I'm fairly mechanical and thought about building my own car. After searching and reading this site for even a short time, I decided to buy a used car built by one of the full-time SM shops. I'm very glad I did this. I have more fun driving the car than working on it (or building one). Even if you get a midpack car it will likely take at least a season before you reach the limits of the car. You'll run out of talent many times prior to this.

I'm in St. Pete and would be glad to answer questions for you, PM me if you like. I now have two SM's and still find time to tinker on them and drive them. They are both set up for HPDE's with instructor seats, yet still can race SM or ITA whenever I get to the track. If you were really efficient you could get a 16' Enclosed trailer for a single car. Just make overhead racks to store your gear. Storing the trailer is an issue that I'm having to deal with now but it's still worth having a nice secure place to keep your cars and equipment. I'd not ever drive a caged car on the street. Good way to mush your own mellon in an accident. My $.02


Joe
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#13
Matt813

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I agree with you guys about equipment not being a big factor as much as getting up to speed racing and learning the tracks I would be driving on. Another thought that has crept in to my mind is the amount of time I would have to build the car and the possibility of it becoming a way more long term project than originally anticipated. I've seen too many people buy project cars with visions of grandeur only for them to end up a stripped frame in a storage unit and eventually sold.

I'm thinking I will go the race ready route, find something at a pretty good price all the while not something I'll have to repair/replace the majority of. I realize this is everyone's dream and these kinds of deals aren't just sitting out there in the classifieds but at this moment it will take me a little while to save up enough money to comfortably jump in to this. I'm thinking this will give me plenty of time to complete more DE's (Dad's already talking about getting r-compounds/brakes/etc. for the Boxster; I had to remind him it's HIS car and he doesn't need to spend money on it for ME to have fun ha! :) ) all the while making sure I don't stretch myself too thin nor throw myself into the fire sooner than I am ready to go in.

Joe I may be in touch with you as I think it would be good for me to get to some races and be around someone knowledgeable in the area. Your setup (being able to do both DE and race) sounds good since I'm still young (24) and still do some things/take some trips with some spontaneity so I'd be able to mix and match both.

Once again I appreciate all the responses guys, I know this question has been beaten to death so I am glad that I wasn't flamed with all the "USE THE SEARCH BUTTON!!11!1!" posts since I've been a member of many forums and have come to know that as standard protocol.

Luckily, I already drive a Ford F150 so I've got a large line item (tow vehicle) that I shouldn't have to worry about. Now it's details like storage that I've got to think about. Dave, I will pick up your book shortly and read it before making any new moves. In the meantime I'm going to read up on the year differences as it seems I've come across people saying the "1.6L is dead" and general consensus seems to show that a '99 is the best/most logical starting point.

Matt

#14
jeopardyracing

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Depending on your region the 1.6 is not dead at all. Here in DC we have a large SSM class which is nearly all 1.6, and even in SM it's pretty debatable whether the 1.6 is really dead.

Here's a post saying the opposite:

http://mazdaracers.c...ch=1

Rich Hoyer
SSM #47 WDCR SCCA

SM #45 NASA Mid Atlantic Region


#15
Caveman-kwebb99

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Depending on your region the 1.6 is not dead at all. Here in DC we have a large SSM class which is nearly all 1.6, and even in SM it's pretty debatable whether the 1.6 is really dead.

Here's a post saying the opposite:

http://mazdaracers.c...ch=1


Do we really have to go back and rehash all of that? :blink:

K. Webb
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#16
jeopardyracing

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I couldn't resist :D

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#17
Matt813

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My region would be Southeast, I'm in Central Florida. Guess I'll have to go to some races and check out the consensus.

#18
dstevens

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If you are in the southeast running SCCA a 99 built and tuned properly will be the car to have under current rules. It will be a year or two before you'll be able to start fully exploiting it. There was talk about renting a ride but unless you are well funded and able to pay for crash damage at the time, that may not be a good way to go. For the majority of hobbyists and amateurs building a car will always take longer and cost more than initially budgeted. The pros have done scores of cars, have all the stuff and can put one out in about a month. Check with guys like East Street, OPM or Meathead Racing, they may have something or have a line on something.

The only thing I would do over is to wait a bit and get a cleaner donor.




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