Tire management

My brother and I have talked about this since we joined the class.  I know he mentioned it in the great tire discussion thread back on page 87 or so...  This would help us considerably and encourage us to attend bigger races.  At the end of the day if you make a rule for a class it needs to apply to all races.  Maybe in some of the less competitive regions "stickering up" is not quite as commonplace but if you run in the southeast odds are at least the top 10 or so competitors are going to have fresh rubber and at certain tracks you'll see plenty of new tires on Sunday.  Maybe you just keep the registration sticker on the car until you are done with the tires.  Then if you own 19 sets of wheels you can show up looking like the one guy that runs the nearly dead regional class and has his back window covered in winner stickers.  At the end of the day, if you want to win, you will need new tires.  If you're there just to ride around and have fun, who cares?  This is more a blow to the top 1% of the field who never even visits the tire trailer because they pay someone to do that for them.  Last time I checked, I paid about $110 for a new wheel and $25 for a mount and balance.  Sure the wheels last longer but the tires make me go faster.

 

Last year at Roebling, we were racing with Pardus, Carter, Connole, Jones, etc.  Everyone up front shows up with new rubber Saturday (shocker, right?) and we have a great race.  Roebling is terrible on tires and new rubber is considerably quicker.  Now for at least half of those mentioned including ourselves the prospect of Sunday rubber was pretty much not an option.  We made a gentleman's agreement Saturday afternoon to run the same tires Sunday.  Everyone then had another great race Sunday.  Pretty sure the field looked very similar to Saturday's race.  Could almost guarantee some dude on 5 heat cycle tires moved up positions STRICTLY DUE TO SEAT TIME and most likely finished closer to the leaders than the previous day.

 

I've got 2 young kids and may have nicknamed my car "Community College" but really don't intend on making that a reality (although the world does need more mechanics and if you know any good ones send them my way).  Let's get this process moving and I guarantee you'll see better turnouts including more showings from a couple of redneck brothers from NC.

Warning: Long-winded post ahead.

Thanks Jim, there’s been the occasional vague reference to something like this but nobody has stepped up with an actual plan and submitted it through channels. This has the potential to make a real difference. Clearly there is very strong support so far from people who respond to the poll.

I like the stickers over other options for the reasons you state if the right adhesive can be found. Making them tamper proof would probably be lots of little slices that hold together when the backing is removed but come apart if removed from the tire, as is common with license plate stickers. Of course the kids will need to stop using Black Magic Tire Wet.

But, I do have some buts. I’m not a fan of introducing artificial “excitement” through strategic challenges so I would support the idea in spite of that aspect rather than because of it. As Jim says, perhaps not everyone will be pleased but it should benefit the vast majority of the field at Super Tour events, either by direct cost reduction or improved performance parity. It’s possible that a few will decline to attend an HST as a result but I think just as likely that a few will attend because of it.

I’m less convinced about regular Majors events and am leaning towards Martinracing98’s position on regionals or whatever we call them these days. We spend a lot of time and effort on tire management particularly at “lesser” events and this blows holes in it, but I think it would impact many others even worse. We have a lot of space both at the shop and in the trailer, and wheels are cheaper than tires, so we keep a LOT of sets mounted at all times and typically carry 4 sets of drys per car to the track, plus a couple spares. We keep total cost low by not dismounting until we are truly done with them, but a lot of what we might well use for a timed session or two would not make a full weekend.

Now visualize someone with room for just a couple sets of wheels & drys at home and in the trailer, and the budget. How often will he/she be stuck choosing between the risk of not making it though the weekend on one “decent” set and the cost of not only purchasing and mounting a new set but also later paying to re-mount the used set to get more use out of them or throwing them away? At the lower levels I don’t think this is a rare/minority scenario, I think it would be a very common and costly conundrum. (By the way Jim, did you include $60-100 per set m&b in your tire cost calc? Most of us pay that)

So some of those people dig deeper for an extra set or two of wheels because it saves money long-term keeping those for test sessions, and manage to convince the wife they don’t look that bad stacked in the corner of the family room with a plant on them. Unfortunately, test sessions and test days are not always available so they probably end up stuck with a pile of usable tires that won’t quite cut it for a full event. I don’t think this is far fetched, I think it’s guaranteed, and we haven’t event talked about the guys who get by entirely on other people’s take-offs.

I am very concerned about the impact on regional budget racers, and I suspect that a lot of them run whatever races are close whether technically a Major or regional. So I’m concerned that implementation at all Majors *may* negatively impact attendance for those. That’s the part I’m on the fence with. Would it make any sense to give the regions the option to set the policy for their Majors in the supps?

Unfortunately, if I am correct and this proved unpopular at the lower levels then it doesn’t really help the class or the club where help is probably needed most. I’d still be glad to see cost savings and a more level field at HST events and some Majors, but in the big picture my concerns for the club lie more with improving affordability at the lower levels and I’m not sure this will achieve that.

In that vein, this is also a good time to revisit the “contingency” program which I have never supported. I see that a couple people have already raised it so I’m not alone. If you’ve read this far I’m going to risk a little reflection on history. Back in the day we had an open-tire rule allowing any DOT rated tire in the correct size. Debate raged for some time about the need to spec a tire and some prominent class leaders were opposed. Back then a “contingency” and/or discounted tires was just part of brand marketing as in other classes and with other products so there was no issue. But eventually the spec tire supporters won, well, sort of. A deal was struck which I presume included some monetary benefit to the club, and altogether antithetical to creating a spec, contingencies would still be paid to the guys at the pointy end. With a mandatory spec tire there is NO logical way to look at that other than the masses subsidizing the few, and in a way that only increases the gap between them. I’m in no way suggesting that the typical guy running mid-pack on back is suddenly going to run with the lead pack on equal tires, and I hope they don’t believe that, but that ISN’T the point. I’ve heard & read all the arguments from contingency proponents over the years and they range from absurd to pure elitist rationalization, none even remotely convincing.

Whether this cost control plan moves forward or not, and whether or not we get a more affordable-to-race SM8, I say it’s time to rework the contract with Hoosier as of 2020 to eliminate all contingencies and instead hold down the rapidly escalating price of their tires, which without doing the math I am confident have risen far above the official rate of inflation. I don’t care if it comes to only a few bucks a tire, (and we should be shown the calculations) it should go to everyone buying new tires, period.

 

Regarding the rule for regionals and the impact on someone stretching their inventory of older tires....That gets better if we're on a tire with more competitive heat cycles.  The tire choice then for an event when choosing among 8 already mounted tires with 3-6 heat cycles gets a lot simpler. 

As a perpetually mid-pack regional racer, I'm not sure that this plan helps "me".    

 

I just bought another set of wheels in hopes that it will let me better mix and match older tires to eek out another weekend before having to visit the tire guy.  Promises that the SM8 will last longer is HUGELY more important to me than restricting me or my competitors from stickering up.   My problem with the SM7's isnt that I need to sticker up for that last tenth of a second, it's that - at least at the tracks I frequent - a 7 or 8 HC tire puts me 1-1.5s off the pace of my group of midpack competitors...

Lots of good ideas and opinions here.
Please remember, send a letter to crbscca.com with anything you like or dislike about this proposal.

Regarding the rule for regionals and the impact on someone stretching their inventory of older tires....That gets better if we're on a tire with more competitive heat cycles. The tire choice then for an event when choosing among 8 already mounted tires with 3-6 heat cycles gets a lot simpler.

True, but that’s still a big IF. And my expectation when blathering on was that, contrary to Bench’s exclamation, regionals would not be included initially if at all. My real point of concern then is the non-HST Majors and the potential impact on them.

True, but that’s still a big IF. And my expectation when blathering on was that, contrary to Bench’s exclamation, regionals would not be included initially if at all. My real point of concern then is the non-HST Majors and the potential impact on them.

 

You more or less posted what I was talking about. Front runners showing up to every weekend with stickers now only have to buy one set which save them money. Non-front runners that are mixing and matching tires from their collection to get every last usable dollar out of them just lost that flexibility. You really can't enforce this at the regional level. Even some smaller Majors would be a bad idea.

 

I think this idea should only apply to Super Tour, June Sprints, and Runnoffs at the start. If it really is successful it can be expanded.

I just cross posed Jim's idea to the AS forum.  Same (actually worst) issues in AS that have been discussed for years, except that we are not limited currently to one compound, or one manufacturer. And our tires cost a LOT more per set.

 

Not perfect, but when applied only to majors, super tour and maybe runoffs, it sure does lower costs and brings the have's and the have not's a little closer together.

 

Great idea Jim

Ron and Tom, is this comment not implying there currently are "SM directors"? Not busting the posters balls, only asking a question.

Is it getting darker at the bottom of that hole

 

The poster said he was a NASA driver. NASA has Series leaders(SM director could also be a term)...the poster obviously does not drive SCCA or he would not have written what he did. Implementation was his question and intent...being a GCR black and white guy it would have been simple to post who could oversee tires since SM director is not an option...which of course you know...which makes your question rhetorical and ball busting!

 

 

Now that we are 4 pages into this thread...I encourage all to read Jims original plan AGAIN!! Hard to argue that any tweaking is even necessary!

 

Ironically...in regions were there is good competition and respect/friendships...this same plan has often been done and continues to be done with a gentleman's agreement. But as Jim's plan proposed...start with Super Tours and Majors.

I just cross posed Jim's idea to the AS forum. Same (actually worst) issues in AS that have been discussed for years, except that we are not limited currently to one compound, or one manufacturer. And our tires cost a LOT more per set.

Not perfect, but when applied only to majors, super tour and maybe runoffs, it sure does lower costs and brings the have's and the have not's a little closer together.

Great idea Jim

Not to stray too far, but yeah, for AS it would alter not just the number of tires used but choosing a brand and compound that can make it through Sunday. And that in turn alters the tire wars and priorities of competing brands. Not that AS alone is big enough to alter their strategy. But with big classes like SM & SRF, such a rule combined with open-brand (so to speak) could flip competition between manufacturers back in the racer’s favor. Not to say 4 sessions from a tire is great, but if they can do that at 10/10s with low degradation then they might last longer for the budget racers.

...

Ironically...in regions were there is good competition and respect/friendships...this same plan has often been done and continues to be done with a gentleman's agreement. But as Jim's plan proposed...start with Super Tours and Majors.

That’s great of course, but by definition it is voluntary among people in a position to do it. I assume there are others at those events, probably further back, who can’t and aren’t expected to because it isn’t important? Those are the issue, and I expect that on average it’s more than 10% or whatever the “too bad” cutoff is.

Having read some of the posts regarding some of the lower budget teams (like me)  I think we have to make some adjustments some how to the program to allow for people to only be allowed to have one set of sticker tires for the major, weekend but a greater limit on the Non sticker tires.

 

For example, this past weekend at Mid Ohio. traditionally Mid o likes older tires. If you happen to have had some 3-8 session tires you would be good to go but you may need two sets of those to get the most out of the weekend.

 

I had a set of stickers that i ran in qualifying and a set of 5 HC tires i ran in the race.

 

I was not in the Jim camp that said you needed stickers to qualify or race well I ran the fastest times for me that weekend on older tires.

 

the temps were not that hot and the track was not that rubbered in, if it was old tires would have stood out.

 

My point. the lower budget guy may not even want a set of sticker tires and if that is the case how can we allow them to run two sets of tires over the weekend (or more) We need to find a way to take old tires out of the equation. IMO.

Having read some of the posts regarding some of the lower budget teams (like me)  I think we have to make some adjustments some how to the program to allow for people to only be allowed to have one set of sticker tires for the major, weekend but a greater limit on the Non sticker tires.

 

For example, this past weekend at Mid Ohio. traditionally Mid o likes older tires. If you happen to have had some 3-8 session tires you would be good to go but you may need two sets of those to get the most out of the weekend.

 

I had a set of stickers that i ran in qualifying and a set of 5 HC tires i ran in the race.

 

I was not in the Jim camp that said you needed stickers to qualify or race well I ran the fastest times for me that weekend on older tires.

 

the temps were not that hot and the track was not that rubbered in, if it was old tires would have stood out.

 

My point. the lower budget guy may not even want a set of sticker tires and if that is the case how can we allow them to run two sets of tires over the weekend (or more) We need to find a way to take old tires out of the equation. IMO.

You'd see people spending a bunch of money scrubbing tires and sitting on them. I don't see a way you would be able to police it. That's the first problem I saw, If you have a solution that's a different story.

You'd see people spending a bunch of money scrubbing tires and sitting on them. I don't see a way you would be able to police it. That's the first problem I saw, If you have a solution that's a different story.

I would for sure So will many others that may not admit it

From what I can see it's a very small percentage of racers that are running more than on set of stickers a weekend. Yes I can see the advantage of putting stickers on every time a car goes out. So the small percentage are buying an advantage. And that's a problem. Like Frank says the lower budget guy looses out with Jims plan being not able to run whatever used sets he has in the trailer at any time he wants. For example a afternoon qualifying will be slower than a cool morning Q and you may just want to put a set of shit tires because it's not going to help running newer ones. Or he is a mid pack guy that sees no value in sticking up to go from P45 to P40. 

 

If we are only talking Super Tours it has more appeal due to the fact that most only run 2 or 3 a season. But the frugal racer will want to use every bit of the tire till they see cords witch means picking through all the tires he has at his disposal. 

 

for those that can't have their tires on the car for more than two sessions can sell them as takeoffs. So some money can be recouped. 

 

Problem still is that people can buy an advantage as it stands today. So fix one thing but move the problem to another? here in lies the rub. 

Speaking of scrubs, we’ve always made an effort to do the recommended first heat cycle then let them rest as directed. We almost never did a timed session on true stickers, which I know cost us positions in many cases but we just couldn’t bring ourselves into that camp because in theory at least a tire is less competitive in subsequent sessions if not cycled properly. That doesn’t preclude running a qualifying session on stickers, building to your fast lap then stopping and setting those aside for a day or more, but it does mean that under the proposed rule you are stuck with them all weekend.

So, are the guys who use multiple sticker sets per weekend doing that partly because they are damaging the tires? No doubt, at least from my experience, that a sticker is typically faster than a proper 1-cycle scrub, but if forced to run them for Q and race will you start scrubbing them in advance, giving up a little in Q1 in exchange for more consistency after? Or are some of you convinced that the first cycle issue is obsolete BS, or strictly related to absolute longevity rather than consistent grip during the usable life? The Hoosier (and other manufacturers) wording always leaves room for interpretation.

You'd see people spending a bunch of money scrubbing tires and sitting on them. I don't see a way you would be able to police it. That's the first problem I saw, If you have a solution that's a different story.

Well i don't have an answer but maybe we can make the rule track dependent. limiting new tires at a track like Gingerman that eats tires and if you could afford a new set for each race would be important. There are not that many low tire consumption tracks out there. Mid O, NCM if we ever went there. most tracks like fresh tires so

 

I am proposing the Mid O exception to the rule. lol. 

Speaking of scrubs, we’ve always made an effort to do the recommended first heat cycle then let them rest as directed. We almost never did a timed session on true stickers, which I know cost us positions in many cases but we just couldn’t bring ourselves into that camp because in theory at least a tire is less competitive in subsequent sessions if not cycled properly. That doesn’t preclude running a qualifying session on stickers, building to your fast lap then stopping and setting those aside for a day or more, but it does mean that under the proposed rule you are stuck with them all weekend.

So, are the guys who use multiple sticker sets per weekend doing that partly because they are damaging the tires? No doubt, at least from my experience, that a sticker is typically faster than a proper 1-cycle scrub, but if forced to run them for Q and race will you start scrubbing them in advance, giving up a little in Q1 in exchange for more consistency after? Or are some of you convinced that the first cycle issue is obsolete BS, or strictly related to absolute longevity rather than consistent grip during the usable life? The Hoosier (and other manufacturers) wording always leaves room for interpretation.

 

I'm by no means an expert on this, but I have tried pre-scrubbed (from Phil's Tire Service), cycling once then letting sit for 24 hours myself, and just running stickers and not don't any maintenance.

 

I concluded that if there is any extra grip in HC 2 to 6, it isn't enough to be measurable and it definitely isn't worth the sacrifice of the first HC which is the fastest. I couldn't find any longevity gains either and in the case of my pre-scrubbed tires, they went to cords faster than just running from stickers. My sample size isn't great, but the extra management effort to cycle tires doesn't seem worth much, if anything at all with the SM7.

 

However this discussion might be better in a new thread. Plus I do not think I have ever seen someone shelving the stickers to go faster with the SM7...

Speaking of scrubs, we’ve always made an effort to do the recommended first heat cycle then let them rest as directed. We almost never did a timed session on true stickers, which I know cost us positions in many cases but we just couldn’t bring ourselves into that camp because in theory at least a tire is less competitive in subsequent sessions if not cycled properly. That doesn’t preclude running a qualifying session on stickers, building to your fast lap then stopping and setting those aside for a day or more, but it does mean that under the proposed rule you are stuck with them all weekend.

So, are the guys who use multiple sticker sets per weekend doing that partly because they are damaging the tires? No doubt, at least from my experience, that a sticker is typically faster than a proper 1-cycle scrub, but if forced to run them for Q and race will you start scrubbing them in advance, giving up a little in Q1 in exchange for more consistency after? Or are some of you convinced that the first cycle issue is obsolete BS, or strictly related to absolute longevity rather than consistent grip during the usable life? The Hoosier (and other manufacturers) wording always leaves room for interpretation.

 

I have not found that following the recommended Hoosier break-in followed by rest gives any better performance for the next few cycles and it often means devoting track time to that process which is better used for another purpose.  The SM7 lasts forever in terms of having usable tread covering the cord, but it's lost a lot of grip long before that happens.   They age out also.  I have a durometer and a tire with a few cycles that sat over the winter measures a bit harder than one with similar cycles from the current year, but that really needs to be measured at operating temp.  Haven't made that comparison. 

 

I really like Jim's proposal but getting a longer lasting tire is a key to it working well for the masses.  In that context (with a tire more RA1-like) it's brilliant.  That really puts the field on a much more level playing field in terms of performance and cost.  With no change form the SM7, competitors that won't buy a new set for every event (unless we're on a cheaper tire) don't get much benefit but by all means let's adopt the rule.  It's probably not realistic to expect the unicorn perfect tire that stays consistent until it's bald, although SRF3 (and FE class which I understand also has had a very long lasting competitive tire) gives hope.  Tire choice-wise though we have to do better.  We have to find and spec a tire that is more economical, otherwise retaining and attracting racers will be a challenge. 

 

As Scott mentioned above, other classes have a similar issue.  The Touring drivers too don't like their tire bills. 

Ralph as a SMAC member you should be trying to find every way possible to contain costs for the majority of the class, never will there be any plan that suits every single member of the class.

 

This is a good step in the right direction. Best is the evil enemy of BETTER!!!!!  Lets do BETTER for this class and then if we can even make the BETTER get BETTER with some tweeking then we keep making adjustments.

 

I agreed with you when you wanted to slot rear control arms to make things cheaper for the avg racer that doesn't want to change a million parts to find the special ones, but I do not agree with you that this plan does not help the class contain costs. This plan is needed at supert tour for sure majors maybe, regionals NO!

not doing at regional or divisional makes sense. not a lot of folks stickering up both days. 

but doing it at majors and super tours, lowers the cost to put the tires within the noise of driver skill, which makes a lot of sense. and would lower the cost for folks on the fence about doing a majors or tour compared to right now, knowing that youd need 2 or 3 sets to run at the front. 

people will always find a way to run everything they can afford. the purpose of a good set of rules is to make sure that the variables that can have massive amounts of money spent on them, will add only a small amount of speed. controlling tire wear puts tires into that category.