is this the new Sm tire? :)

Perhaps it goes without saying for most but, but a heat cycle at the pace of an HST podium is not the same as one even a second off that pace, and 2 seconds off is a very significant difference. With every tire we’ve ever run there were guys claiming double-digit heat cycles, some as many as 20, without much impact on times. That says a lot about the pace they run at but absolutely nothing about the tire. Obviously there’s a full range of pace vs tire life between that extreme and the 1-2 session guys, probably represented by a typical bell curve. Although the guys up front don’t like buying tires either, they always will because there’s no magic to make a tire that doesn’t fall off somewhat from new. It’s just too close up front. So to tynor’s point, the focus should be getting a tire with the widest possible plateau after that initial drop off. That way the vast majority of racers get more events on the same tire budget. The front runners will do what front runners do.

And that is how SCCA should be looking at it. I strongly dislike not knowing the financial details of the contracts with tire manufacturers but if I had their attention I would try to drive home that budgets are finite and for many a limiting factor on how many events they to is the cost of tires. They may know that on one level, but the underlying point is that every extra dollar spent on tires is one less available for entry fees. So do they want a few cents kickback or the whole dollar?

Oh, and stop the “contingencies”. That’s just the poor subsidizing the rich, or the slow helping the fast go faster, and serves no other purpose with a spec tire. It’s just so stupid from a marketing perspective as well, leaving the vast majority of customers feeling second-rate while the guys at the front pull even further away on free stickers. In all these years I have never heard/read a single logical justification that wasn’t actually self-serving rationalization.

Perhaps it goes without saying for most but, but a heat cycle at the pace of an HST podium is not the same as one even a second off that pace, and 2 seconds off is a very significant difference. With every tire we’ve ever run there were guys claiming double-digit heat cycles, some as many as 20, without much impact on times. That says a lot about the pace they run at but absolutely nothing about the tire. Obviously there’s a full range of pace vs tire life between that extreme and the 1-2 session guys, probably represented by a typical bell curve. Although the guys up front don’t like buying tires either, they always will because there’s no magic to make a tire that doesn’t fall off somewhat from new. It’s just too close up front. So to tynor’s point, the focus should be getting a tire with the widest possible plateau after that initial drop off. That way the vast majority of racers get more events on the same tire budget. The front runners will do what front runners do.

And that is how SCCA should be looking at it. I strongly dislike not knowing the financial details of the contracts with tire manufacturers but if I had their attention I would try to drive home that budgets are finite and for many a limiting factor on how many events they to is the cost of tires. They may know that on one level, but the underlying point is that every extra dollar spent on tires is one less available for entry fees. So do they want a few cents kickback or the whole dollar?

Oh, and stop the “contingencies”. That’s just the poor subsidizing the rich, or the slow helping the fast go faster, and serves no other purpose with a spec tire. It’s just so stupid from a marketing perspective as well, leaving the vast majority of customers feeling second-rate while the guys at the front pull even further away on free stickers. In all these years I have never heard/read a single logical justification that wasn’t actually self-serving rationalization.

this is my point with the graph. the front runners are gonna front run, and that means even with a tire that has no drop off for 8-10 HC, will still only run 1-3 on them. the perception alone will do it. 

meanwhile, us divisional guys, it helps us actually a ton. because while i bring stickers to weekends i think i can win at, i run 3-8HC tires at other races. if the tire had a longer tail, id run em even longer at those tracks/weekends. might actually bring me out to more races cause i dont have to buy another set for the season. 

on the contingency front, real talk, why dont you just have a drawing at the end of a weekend for the free tires? everyone has an equal chance. either that, or actually just lower the cost of the tires. 

that means even with a tire that has no drop off for 8-10 HC, will still only run 1-3 on them. the perception alone will do it.

That may be the silliest thing I have read in a long time. I think you underestimate the intelligence of the front runners

maybe i should clarify? dunno, you decided to take that as an insult and i dont know what was insulting about it. 

if the tire has a very long middle life, divisional racers will see tire costs drop. middle life being, not quite prime, but not fallen off. so the guys who want to be at the absolutely front are going to be on fresh tires, because there is an advantage, while the grid fillers, will be able to use the tires longer, save money, and thus hopefully fill more grids. 

im not sure what was unclear or insulting about that observation. i was more or less confirming steve's point. 

I expect to be in the minority on this forum to be pleased with Hoosier over the 7.5. I find pleasure in watching my competitors outspend me for no advantage. I raced 3-session 7.5s at VIR and have been running last weekend's set all test day with no measurable (lap time) drop in performance. I NEVER would have raced a 3-session SM7 at a big event.

That's great but I don't think getting 3 fast cycles out of a tire instead maybe 2 is cause for satisfaction.  Improvement?  Maybe.  There are plenty of racing series that have MUCH longer competitive life from their spec tires.  My brother runs a FV in the FV Challenge series in the NE and there is a similar series in the SE.   They use a Yokohama 200 or so tire, the class is really competitive much like ours and the front runners (some good current and former SCCA pilots) run an entire season (5-6 weekends) on a set of tires or even longer.  My brother ran at Mid Ohio last weekend (FRP) on borrowed used tires from last year I believe, finished 3rd on Sunday and led in the pack a couple times. They're getting 20+ FV's at their events. 

 

Now I won't suggest that our 2400 pound cars will get the same life as a 1200 pound car but we only need to look at NASA to see that their spec tire is much more economical than that of SCCA for the class overall. 

 

There are a lot of tire choices out there, something has to be a lot better.  The SM7.5 and the SM7 for that matter certainly have a long tread life and from what I've seen a lot of consistency after the first few cycles.  That's a positive but the step down from new to 4 cycles or so at most tracks makes for a haves and have not class.  The cost to be a "have" for an entire season is thousands of dollars. 

https://grassrootsmo...6vCEpMdM5ks5ucI

 

had dinner w Bruce Foss three years ago at Sebring when this first came up.  thought they gave up on going after the AER/Champcar/WRL crowd.  apparently not....

 

 

would be nice to be on a 200 tw tire BUT we'll all be shaving it to get the best speed out of them.

 

the southeast boys and girls are showing us the way at their regionals using the toyo.  it's the tire we should be on plain and simple across both sanctioning bodies.

...

would be nice to be on a 200 tw tire BUT we'll all be shaving it to get the best speed out of them.

...

“All” referring to the front runners, sure, but it will be interesting to learn how deep the tread is and how well a full tread tire holds up under max pace. The RA-1s and 888s were so deep and squirmy they pretty much had to be shaved, then it was a matter of how thin. At 200 tw a tire with the right compound can have shallower tread and still go a lot of laps. Targeting endurance racing that has to be a given to succeed. Which brings me back to the same place, people already running stickers every weekend will almost certainly shave a 200 tw tire if necessary to stay up front. So what? They aren’t the reason to consider a change. And if for some reason SCCA is locked into Hoosier then maybe cousin Conti has the solution. Simple mold change and the SM8 is born.

The 

 

“All” referring to the front runners, sure, but it will be interesting to learn how deep the tread is and how well a full tread tire holds up under max pace. The RA-1s and 888s were so deep and squirmy they pretty much had to be shaved, then it was a matter of how thin. At 200 tw a tire with the right compound can have shallower tread and still go a lot of laps. Targeting endurance racing that has to be a given to succeed. Which brings me back to the same place, people already running stickers every weekend will almost certainly shave a 200 tw tire if necessary to stay up front. So what? They aren’t the reason to consider a change. And if for some reason SCCA is locked into Hoosier then maybe cousin Conti has the solution. Simple mold change and the SM8 is born.

 

I agree, the "perfect" tire would be a 200TW ish compound, ( BTW the 200 TW on this continental is the same as our sm 7.5)  or current toyo RR at 2 mm ( 2.5/32 tread depth which) 

 

Imo the RR molded to 2mm tread depth is a perfect SM tire ( unfortunately they will never do that)   That would allow people to shave to if they wanted but the gain would be so small it wouldn't be worth it and the tire would run 20 sessions with no considerable fall off, meaning you could race and win on those tires until they cord IMO

The 

 

 

I agree, the "perfect" tire would be a 200TW ish compound, ( BTW the 200 TW on this continental is the same as our sm 7.5)  or current toyo RR at 2 mm ( 2.5/32 tread depth which) 

 

Imo the RR molded to 2mm tread depth is a perfect SM tire ( unfortunately they will never do that)   That would allow people to shave to if they wanted but the gain would be so small it wouldn't be worth it and the tire would run 20 sessions with no considerable fall off, meaning you could race and win on those tires IMO

This is the winner!!!!!  The most tread that still isn't worth shaving!!!!!!

The 

 

 

I agree, the "perfect" tire would be a 200TW ish compound, ( BTW the 200 TW on this continental is the same as our sm 7.5)  or current toyo RR at 2 mm ( 2.5/32 tread depth which) 

 

Imo the RR molded to 2mm tread depth is a perfect SM tire ( unfortunately they will never do that)   That would allow people to shave to if they wanted but the gain would be so small it wouldn't be worth it and the tire would run 20 sessions with no considerable fall off, meaning you could race and win on those tires until they cord IMO

Interesting to see you say this! At 4/32"(3.175mm) I think the RR starts at a great compromise of tire life and ideal/pace stickers. I'm not convinced that the RR isnt just the RA1 rebranded. When the RA1 was at its "prime"(via wear or shaving) we ran about the same times...even though treadwear rating is different and maybe structure slightly? Granted...very track dependent.

 

The West coast is getting closer and closer to entirely Toyo. The North West which has never run on Toyo is giving it a shot this year! And crazy as it sounds they are all over track records and realizing what they have been missing! And I'm not referring to speed...but consistency over a longer tire life.

 

SFR SCCA and NASA Norcal are averaging 40 entries each in 2021...70 of those 80 are running Toyo. Those on Hoosier in SFR SCCA are planning for Indy or are getting/using up free tires won for regional contingency by beating 6 cars

 

My guess is Socal is at about the same percentages. 

 

But in the end it doesnt really matter what is best for the class...its about relationships and partnerships at the top. In my volunteer position of fostering/hustling participation, thank god I dont have to work around tire complaints

Maybe it would be easier to ask all the tracks around the country to repave in friendly to used 7.5 asphalt? 

FWIW.. Just paid for two sets of toyos shaved and shipped.. $1815.23.. 

 

Yes, I am sure I didnt "have"  to shave, but only running one competitive race weekend on them this year,   So I did.    Starting with shaved, Toyo is a more expensive option than Hoosier IMO

FWIW.. Just paid for two sets of toyos shaved and shipped.. $1815.23.. 

 

Yes, I am sure I didnt "have"  to shave, but only running one competitive race weekend on them this year,   So I did.    Starting with shaved, Toyo is a more expensive option than Hoosier IMO

You need 2 sets for a single car for a single weekend?

You need 2 sets for a single car for a single weekend?

Its for NASA champs..  Probably not,  but what if I do? Not like I can buy them at the track

FWIW.. Just paid for two sets of toyos shaved and shipped.. $1815.23.. 

 

Yes, I am sure I didnt "have"  to shave, but only running one competitive race weekend on them this year,   So I did.    Starting with shaved, Toyo is a more expensive option than Hoosier IMO

 

Not sure that is a fair comparison.  The SM7 is heavily discounted.  The R7's would be $2336, plus shipping (and tax?).  Don't you think Toyo would also discount the spec tire if they got the contract?  Perhaps not since they don't in NASA, but they do have much deeper contingency.    Don't know about the SCCA, but the SM7 isn't even eligible for contingency in NASA.   Plus shaving is the exception to the rule and you get more (competitive) heat cycles out of the Toyos.   (Not that I'm a Toyo fan, I run Hoosiers (R7's), but just don't think you can say Toyo's are more expensive without knowing what they'd cost as a spec tire, and certainly the majority of people wouldn't be shaving them.  If they didn't discount, they'd probably have contingency similar to NASA and those who did shave, would most likely be winning large amounts of that contingency and so you'd have to factor that into the cost.)

Not sure that is a fair comparison.  The SM7 is heavily discounted.  The R7's would be $2336, plus shipping (and tax?).  Don't you think Toyo would also discount the spec tire if they got the contract?  Perhaps not since they don't in NASA, but they do have much deeper contingency.    Don't know about the SCCA, but the SM7 isn't even eligible for contingency in NASA.   Plus shaving is the exception to the rule and you get more (competitive) heat cycles out of the Toyos.   (Not that I'm a Toyo fan, I run Hoosiers (R7's), but just don't think you can say Toyo's are more expensive without knowing what they'd cost as a spec tire, and certainly the majority of people wouldn't be shaving them.  If they didn't discount, they'd probably have contingency similar to NASA and those who did shave, would most likely be winning large amounts of that contingency and so you'd have to factor that into the cost.)

Todd

I don't think any of this makes any sense?  We don't run r7, we run sm7.5.  So the price of r7 really really has no relevance? The Toyo is a spec tire, the price is established.  Also Hoosier is paying back to 10th now in super tour races. But none of that is what I mentioned above and not playing the ifs and buts.. Just what we have now and what it costs.  

 

My point was only that the Toyo is quite expensive for what it is.. To run them competitively I think they can be actually more expensive than Hoosier or at least comparable.  And to throw a complete BS flag into the entire gang in Florida claiming these tires don't lose anything over 20 cycles etc... Well, two people were not happy that I bought shaved tires for the champs.. "I figured we would all agree not to shave tires"  If the tires don't lose pace, their 20 plus session tire should weigh the same as shaved and not be at a disadvantage?  I don't have 20 sessions of time to get mine there and personally don't buy that story either. Why else would anyone care if people are shaving tires? 

the grass is always greener. 

My points were that we don't know the price of the Toyo as a spec tire for the SCCA until it is the spec tire for the SCCA.   My guess is that they'd have to come down in price if they'd want to beat Hoosier out for the contract. Sorry didn't know that Hoosier pays that far back now, I should have looked it up, my bad.  It's only 1st and 2nd (7+ starters) with NASA.  My other point is that shaving isn't normal for most people, so I don't know if that is fair to add in the cost for the average racer.   For sure for top runners at major events.  But for every HST guy who shaves, how many regional racers don't?

 

As far as heat cycles etc.   Our track definitely used to be faster for tires with many cycles due to the weight savings (I'd guess), but they were much harder to drive and keep on the edge.  Obviously shaving gives you the best of both worlds, but we just agreed to not shave for our "small" region.    I've not run Toyos since 2013 and the asphalt has degraded and changed quite a bit.  I don't know if the hot ticket is still used tires.  I'll ask our front runners.   But yeah, basic common sense says there is no way a heat cycled (out) tire is going to be faster than a shaved and scrubbed in tire.

 

Though it's all moot isn't it?  It isn't like either the SCCA nor NASA is changing any time soon. 

In terms of lap times, after how many HC's are the tires simply done?  By "done", I mean not worth using for even a practice day.  Is there any data on that or is that even answerable?  My home track is road atlanta if that helps with the answer.

 

Though it's all moot isn't it?  It isn't like either the SCCA nor NASA is changing any time soon. 

I think you are correct