74 replies to this topic

[Sacslider]

With SCCA national going to the Hoosier tire for 2012, does anyone know if the SFR is giong to go to this tire or break stride and stick with Toyo?

Thank you for your imput.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

We have discussed this issue at length since first hearing the rumor. We don't have a final decision but it is unlikely that SFR will follow the National tire rule for Regional races.

We're open to input from our racers if you feel strongly one way or the other - just send the board an email so it can be included in our discussions (rather than post here).

[Ron Alan]

Will send something if it comes to it...but in the meantime I think following National tire change is fine. But allow 1 of 2 things. Either allow both tires for 2012 or at least a 3 weekend grace period with both being allowed. Not sure how the SM6 compares to the RA1 in life expectancy but at least upfront cost is the same if not a little less! Really don't see a reason not to follow...allowing for the transition so guys can burn up what they have! Can also use the Toyo's up in NASA or sell them to a NASA guy!

[Alberto]

We have discussed this issue at length since first hearing the rumor. We don't have a final decision but it is unlikely that SFR will follow the National tire rule for Regional races.

We're open to input from our racers if you feel strongly one way or the other - just send the board an email so it can be included in our discussions (rather than post here).

Who do we email? Never done this before.

[Sean Allen]

They are finally making Hoosier the spec tire!? wow... thought it would never happen

[Johnny D]

Who do we email? Never done this before.

To reach the SFR Board, and bring an issue, problem, or suggestion to their attention, email to
board-directors@sfrscca.org

or to reach one specific Board member,
scroll down to locate their direct email link.
http://www.sfrscca.o...t/view/8873/74/

J~

[Ron Alan]

We have discussed this issue at length since first hearing the rumor. We don't have a final decision but it is unlikely that SFR will follow the National tire rule for Regional races.

We're open to input from our racers if you feel strongly one way or the other - just send the board an email so it can be included in our discussions (rather than post here).

Brian,

Care to elaborate on why? Maybe something inside the board circle that isn't known to most outside...but should be? Contracts? Relationships?

[Dan Cooper]

Wait...it isnt actually going to come about that nats/regionals will run different tires, right? Thats flat out strange.


Will be sending my email tomorrow

[dmathias]

.

[Charlie Hayes]

As much as I hate to see SCCA/NASA spilt in these terms as I race both clubs, I still want both regional clubs to be equivalent to national rules. I will write a email today.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Read this first: http://mazdaracers.c...indpost&p=12094
We have discussed several reasons that lead us to believe the Toyo is the better (overall) tire for our SM and SSM regional racing program:

* The toyo is (reported to be) more consistent over its lifespan; there is less drop-off from first heat cycle to last heat cycle - racers will likely need to buy fresh tires more frequently to be competitive = $$. I have always turned my fastest qualifying laps on 12-15 heat cycle tires that were nearly slicks (FWIW that is something that works on our smooth tracks here in NorCal)

* Unlike many parts of the country who can't get trackside support from Toyo vendors (but can from Hoosier vendors), we have excellent support from Ron Cortez and AIM including contingency money/Toyo Bucks. AIM also sells Hoosiers but we have no information (at this point) on getting an equivalent to Toyo bucks. SSM would definitely be excluded from any National contingency as that is something that Ron personally makes happen in conjunction with Toyo. We are working under the assumption the Toyo program would continue and that is part of our consideration. Toyo bucks make racing less expensive for our racers - yes, not everyone - but it's a lot better than zero.

* The Hoosier has a different dry and wet tire - so you need to have a dedicated set of rain tires that you can't shave and re-use as drys. This might mean an extra set of wheels to keep them mounted = $, plus storage space. If racers elect not to buy the wet tire and additional wheels, they are unlikely to participate if the forecast is mixed or calls for rain. This will lead to smaller field sizes (less desirable racing) and may result in losses for the region.

* NASA is committed to Toyos through 2012, which means our cross-over racers would need more sets of wheels and tires or to choose to run one group or the other or unmount/mount tires between races = $

Fundamentally, the discussions we have had thus far at the board level have been about what is best in terms of competition and finances for our SM/SSM racers. Yes, the hoosier will probably be a bit faster, but it will almost certainly cost more money, require more wheels or prevent cross-over racing and, for guys at the front, will result in even more tire expense in order to stay on the leading edge. All of these things will increase costs at a time when we don't hear racers telling us (through their participation) that they are flush with cash. Jim speculates the Hoosier may tighten up the pack due to its characteristics and that is the only benefit that I see. We want close, as-economical-as-possible racing. The hoosier is unlikely to improve substantially over what we already have. My understanding is that this change was a business decision by the National office and NOT a competition recommendation by the SMAC/CRB.

Dan, you are right that this would result in Nationals and Regionals running different tires; our region has very low National racing turn out so the number of people this impacts is quite small (and I say that knowing it would impact me negatively...). There are apparently several regions around the country who have an open tire rule (now and likely in the future) for regional racing mean they not only will be running different tires from Nationals but different tires on different cars at the same time! (this I feel is suicide for a spec class, my opinion)

Please take the notes here and consider them when writing the board email address or one of the board members directly (like myself, via my email listed at the above link). We have a meeting this Thursday so please do send it soon to be considered.


UPDATE: the official announcement on the Hoosier tires states they will give away 750 tires for _National_ races. There is no regional contingency program apparently at this time.

Edited by Brian Ghidinelli, 08-22-2011 03:50 PM.

[Ron Alan]

Sent my email. I encourage anyone in the region with an opinion to do the same.

BTW Brian, I don't think Jim helped your cost argument. His comments seem to favor neither...essentially calling them equal.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Jim said they would be equivalent in cost *to him* because he starts with 2/32" shaves. Do you? Are you buying a set of tires per weekend or every other weekend?

PS - for a tire that (reportedly) heat cycles out faster than it wears out, this also makes it more difficult/expensive to drive the car to and from the races. While we don't have many of these guys in the field, we should consider that we are in a budget class and are trying to encourage participation. Today's budget racer is next-seasons regular is the following season's regional champion.

[Johnny D]

Jim said they would be equivalent in cost *to him* because he starts with 2/32" shaves. Do you? Are you buying a set of tires per weekend or every other weekend?

I'm not for Hoosiers this year just the facts.

Immediate Release

Hoosier Named Tire for National Spec Miata Competition Beginning in 2012

Hoosier has locked in a price of $166 per tire plus tax for 2012, representing a 3.5 percent discount off the current SM 6 and a 25 percent discount off the 2011 price for an H20 tire. Additionally, Hoosier will provide 750 tires each year of the three-year agreement toward a comprehensive contingency program for National racers and provide technical, service and sales support at each SCCA Nationally-sanctioned event through its network of dealers.

[Alberto]

Jim said they would be equivalent in cost *to him* because he starts with 2/32" shaves. Do you? Are you buying a set of tires per weekend or every other weekend?

PS - for a tire that (reportedly) heat cycles out faster than it wears out, this also makes it more difficult/expensive to drive the car to and from the races. While we don't have many of these guys in the field, we should consider that we are in a budget class and are trying to encourage participation. Today's budget racer is next-seasons regular is the following season's regional champion.

FYI - We have 3 SM racers that I personally know of that drive their cars to/from events in SFR SCCA.

My car is still registered, tagged and smogged and I can drive to/from events if I wanted to. I might just do that for the Infineon race since I'm only an hour away. It will save me $300 if I do that.

The 6/32 shaved tires that I bought new at the beginning of the season will last me the next few races till the end of the season.

Next year, I expect to get by just fine with 2 sets of 4/32s and hope it doesn't rain too hard. That fits my budget reasonably well. Life is expensive enough as it is.

[Jim Drago]

Jim said they would be equivalent in cost *to him* because he starts with 2/32" shaves. Do you? Are you buying a set of tires per weekend or every other weekend?

PS - for a tire that (reportedly) heat cycles out faster than it wears out, this also makes it more difficult/expensive to drive the car to and from the races. While we don't have many of these guys in the field, we should consider that we are in a budget class and are trying to encourage participation. Today's budget racer is next-seasons regular is the following season's regional champion.

That isn't exactly what I said...

With my experience on the Hoosier, they will last longer "for me" as I start the Toyos at 2/32. Faster really doesn't matter at this point. Not so sure that are faster everywhere either. Imo a 3/32-4/32 Toyo will last about the same as a new Hoosier. No one is getting a season out of a Hoosier or a Toyo IMO.

This is the age old debate...
If you start with 4/32 or thinner Toyos, you will see no difference in tire life. If anything, I believe you will get more life from the Hosiers. All this is meaningless until we actually test. I start my tires at 3/32 or 2/32, haven't ran 4/32 since 2006.

What no one is going to want to hear, but is the truth. If you are getting a season out of Toyos, you will get a season out of Hoosiers. But neither tire is remotely competitive for a year unless you race at Mid Ohio all year. That is the only track "I have been to" that I could run as fast or faster on older tires than newer ones. New tires area 1.5 second penalty there. There may be other tracks, but I haven't run them. In most cases, my fastest laps are run on scuffed 2/32 toyos, session 2-4.

I was at the tire test in I think 2008. I will see if we can publish Data.. The Hoosiers were running the same times 8+ hours in and multiple cycles into the tire life. They toyos were still in good shape but times fell off a little bit. The test was at MSR Houston, that track is notoriously hard on tires. I spoke with a competitor who went to the last double national there a few weeks ago with the post Tsunami RA1 tires and went with two new sets of 3/32 tires. He corded his first set 1/3 of the way through the second test session and was borrowing tires to make the weekend. Maybe the competitor will post himself. If this wear becomes the norm with post Tsunami tires, there will be a lot of unhappy people. My feeling is the tires just didn't have the normal time to cure as they came right off the assembly line and on to the race track, similar to R888 at first. But that is just my OPINION.
Jim

[Johnny D]

Jim may be on to something here about post Tsunami tires.
I had a new 4/32 set for SCCA TH and ran the qual/sunday race with them. Maybe not a good heat cycle?
Got them from Aim, so maybe there not post Tsunami.

Anyway, Ran NASA Sat SM race, 1 hr enduro, rotate, Sunday 2 hr enduro and I'm down to slicks, didn't run the Sun SM.
I've done the Enduros at TH and BW and have always had something left, at least a 1/3, 1 to 3 lines depending on how they wore.
Alot of maybe's
My 2 cents, which may not be worth that.
J~

[Alberto]

That isn't exactly what I said...



This is the age old debate...
If you start with 4/32 or thinner Toyos, you will see no difference in tire life. If anything, I believe you will get more life from the Hosiers. All this is meaningless until we actually test. I start my tires at 3/32 or 2/32, haven't ran 4/32 since 2006.

What no one is going to want to hear, but is the truth. If you are getting a season out of Toyos, you will get a season out of Hoosiers. But neither tire is remotely competitive for a year unless you race at Mid Ohio all year. That is the only track "I have been to" that I could run as fast or faster on older tires than newer ones. New tires area 1.5 second penalty there. There may be other tracks, but I haven't run them. In most cases, my fastest laps are run on scuffed 2/32 toyos, session 2-4.

I was at the tire test in I think 2008. I will see if we can publish Data.. The Hoosiers were running the same times 8+ hours in and multiple cycles into the tire life. They toyos were still in good shape but times fell off a little bit. The test was at MSR Houston, that track is notoriously hard on tires. I spoke with a competitor who went to the last double national there a few weeks ago with the post Tsunami RA1 tires and went with two new sets of 3/32 tires. He corded his first set 1/3 of the way through the second test session and was borrowing tires to make the weekend. Maybe the competitor will post himself. If this wear becomes the norm with post Tsunami tires, there will be a lot of unhappy people. My feeling is the tires just didn't have the normal time to cure as they came right off the assembly line and on to the race track, similar to R888 at first. But that is just my OPINION.
Jim

Thanks for the info.

Testing results and methodologies would be helpful if shared. I haven't seen any published info on that nature on the Hoosiers. What I have read and heard from a few guys I know that run R6 and/or SM6 is that they go away quicker than the RA1. No idea on how they "cured" them though fwiw. Longevity and price are important to me.

[Jim Drago]

Alberto
I agree, lots of stories, lots of opinions, lots of pros and cons on both tires.. Without sounding too much like an absolute $%&^!!! Most don't know what they are talking about, pro or con. We( collectively), the SM class, will have better data in 1 month that what all the "paddock experts" and friend of friends etc have figured out in 10 years. Competition in ITA and SM are light years apart, the fields in SM dictate the best out of the tires. The facts will be found out real quick. Until then, most are just not informed enough to have an intelligent opinion.

I know many run Hoosiers in Great lakes and some in SE for Pro IT events, may be they will comment.

Jim

[Brian Ghidinelli]

I agree, lots of stories, lots of opinions, lots of pros and cons on both tires.. Without sounding too much like an absolute $%&^!!! Most don't know what they are talking about, pro or con. We( collectively), the SM class, will have better data in 1 month that what all the "paddock experts" and friend of friends etc have figured out in 10 years. Competition in ITA and SM are light years apart, the fields in SM dictate the best out of the tires. The facts will be found out real quick. Until then, most are just not informed enough to have an intelligent opinion.

In this particular thread I'm wearing my SFR Board Member hat. My concern is that we, as a region, take a risk with an unknown that was driven largely by business and supplier demands that we don't experience in our neck of the woods) and see where we land. We seem to have little to gain if the rumors are false but lots to lose if the rumors on tire life are true. Plus we may lose both our Regional SM and SSM contingency programs and make it less likely for people to run in the rain at the beginning or end of the year. If the rumors are true on heat cycles and/or people are unable to cure them properly, we may find ourselves in the second half of 2012 with people unable/unwilling to purchase enough tires to continue racing the remainder of the season which would negatively impact region finances.

We've received some feedback from members so far, thank you. Keep it coming if you feel strongly one way or the other or have thoughts to share.

PS - I agree with Jim, anyone who says a Toyo or a Hoosier lasts all season isn't driving either one hard enough. It's not a very good data point. That's not a crack on anyone like Alberto - they will get up to speed and need more tires.