136 replies to this topic

[Keith Novak]

What options are being considered with the rule change to Hoosiers and is anyone talking to the local Hoosier guys about the discount so I could pick up tires at the track without the $100 in shipping that I do now? That savings would be nice.

I think we will need to be somewhat flexible for a while. I know the front guys will make a gentleman's agreement and I don't know how much of the tire wisdom floating around is true but for some of us switching over could be logistically awkward.

Basic scenario: I typically bring 2 sets of drys and a set of rains which is all I can carry. Sounds like I should either get heat cycled tires or run a cycle on each set, put them away and run on the drys after that hoping it stays dry and I don't mess up my other set. (I'd rather not pay to run just 2 sessions on a test day.) Then I still have to start figuring out pressures which sounds like a separate weekend unless it's the pre-cycled route... or Ken heat cycles my brand new tires for me as he's graciously offered before. This is complicated by the fact that we did away with practice sessions in favor of more 2-day doubles.

Living 150 miles away, test days at Portland aren't the easiest, and Pacific is notorious as a cheese grater. I'm not complaining. Just curious what is currently on the table, and how I'd have to plan around it.

[Bruce Wilson]

Just a few discussions so far. I think we have plenty of time to discuss and a lot of us National drivers will be at Infineon in a couple weeks, with a lot of evening time on our hands to explore this topic.

The options are:
switch to Hoosiers only for regional
Stay with RA-1 for Regional
Spec both RA-1 and Hoosiers for Regional

There are other more radical ideas that have been thrown about, but we want to hear everyone's opnions (regulars opinions will be weighted accordingly). So let's discuss all available options. No reasonable ideas will be excluded -- Let's get all the options out on the table. But let's try to keep it civil especially with the understanding that everyone I've talked to wants to keep all our friends racing in SCCA and that may require concessions by some.

The floor is open for dicussion.

-bw

PS, it's time to phase out R888's

PPS, It is my opinion that we need to go back to the sprint/race format and I will be championing that topic with the region as well. We need practice sessions given the outrageous cost of test days!!!

[Jim Boemler]

I've thought about it, and it seems all the answers are wrong. I think the class is hosed regardless.

Prediction: class goes with Hoosiers, participation drops 30% next year.

[Randy Thieme]

If I remember correctly the last two changes we've allowed grandfathering the previous model for the full year. I would support that again. If others strongly feel the grandfathering period should be shorter I'm ok with that too. Assuming the tires really are that much faster people at all ends of the pack will probably switch as soon as they can afford to anyways.

Is it truly settled that Topeka has decided the Hoosiers are for national only? I guess regional rules have always been open for the regions to decide. Once people realize the extra cost of having to either get more dismounts/mounts done or buying extra wheels there may be pressure to make it one brand for both national and regional. We would also like to hear confirmation on what will be legal for those double dipping into STL.

What about track records? If the Hoosiers are that much faster will we see our first 29's at PIR for SM? Maybe even a 28? What if a regional driver sets what would have been a record on Toyos only to be blown away by a national guy on Hoosiers?

I would like to see practice sessions returned. I'm ok with no practice sessions in September since it is the end of the season. Next spring let's bring them back.

Idea 1) What about adding Fridays as an open practice day and part of the official event. No group specific sessions, just all the laps you can eat at the buffet table. I realize this pretty much ursurps(sp?) Pro-Drive but by amortizing the cost over a larger group maybe it would be more affordable.

Idea 2) What about consolidating run groups only for practice? For example, groups 1 & 7 could practice together. There may be two or three other groups which could be condensed into their own session. It would mean fewer track crossings which could be more frustating for move in but we might be able to increase the sessions to almost twice as long. Plenty of time to come in, make adjustments, and go back out to test the changes.

P.S. As for tire nicknames I referred to the R-888's as "Terminators" after the T-888 science fiction character. If what I've read is true about Hoosiers being more prone to lock-up under braking maybe I'll call them the Non-Terminators.

[William Bonsell]

It seems like one of the drawbacks to the Hoosiers is that it makes it impossible, pretty much, for anyone to drive their SM to the track which has always been an option on Toyo's for anyone just getting into the class on a tight budget. I think Randy as well as Stephen Hui did just that, if not others. I suspect the fast guys up front will line up with Hoosiers and run them whether the weekend is a national or regional event. Since there are certainly lots of tire options out there, I would tend to favor going to an open tire for regional events. Run a Hoosier, or a Toyo (if you can still get them) or a Hankook, or a Goodyear. I have 3 sets of newer RA-1's and certainly don't want to buy anymore tires or wheels for that matter also. I know many regions have an open tire. Just curious if anyone knows how that works out for them. At the very least, grandfather in RA-1's for 2012 for all regional events.

Regarding Randy's comments about more practice time. ProDrive is hugely expensive it seems. Why could not SCCA offer up Fridays as a Test and Tune much like Conference does before their Sat/Sun event. These T&T's generally cost in the neighborhood of $150-175. And generally broken down into three run groups, at least at Pacific.....Open wheel, closed wheel German cars, and everyone else. Lots of track time...very reasonable price.

Bill

[Bruce Wilson]

I've thought about it, and it seems all the answers are wrong. I think the class is hosed regardless.

Bzzzzt, wrong answer, next

-bw

[Bruce Wilson]

Bill, Oregon region has historically been strongly against open tire rules, but I'm sure everyone is open to grandfathering or RA-1 and SM6 only. But the question is, what happens if the SM6 is way faster than the Toyo? At some point in the field that causes a disparity.

-bw

[Jim Venable]

Bill, Oregon region has historically been strongly against open tire rules, but I'm sure everyone is open to grandfathering or RA-1 and SM6 only. But the question is, what happens if the SM6 is way faster than the Toyo? At some point in the field that causes a disparity.

-bw

Might running Hoosiers and Toyos as a class within the class for the year
be a possibility?

Jim

[Bruce Wilson]

Might running Hoosiers and Toyos as a class within the class for the year
be a possibility?

Jim

Hmmm, We already have two classes SM and CSM. Time to jettison CSM?

SM for normal people (Toyos) and SMT for those that are serious about nationals and can't afford to switch back and forth?

-bw

[Terrell Garrett]

Let's do the same thing as we did with the hated 888's. Use both for next year and if you really want to go fast pay the money. After all, it costs more to go faster and there is nothing we can do to change it.

This would allow the fence-sitters (such as myself) to comply with whatever Conference decides and race both sides of the fence. Not that my opinion has much weight due to my mid-pack and mid-fence position.

As far as the 888's I vote we send them to Newberg for use as boiler fuel.

[Bruce Wilson]

Actually Terrell, mid pack opinions rank highest as that is where most people run

-bw

[Keith Novak]

Nittos for everyone it is!!!

[Terrell Garrett]

Personally I think we should make those guys who currently run 1:32.5 and faster run 888's and the rest of us get to run the Hoosiers. Sorry Kyle, you made the front pack last race and don't get the fast tires. Since my best is now a 1:32.6 I think 1:32.5 is the right cutoff point. This way we can all play together longer before everybody spreads out. Of course, I could just get some balls and drive faster and it wouldn't matter.

Keith can run the Nittos since he thinks they are cool!

[Johnny D]

FYI, From what I've heard...
Nitto are RA1's compound with a differnt tread pattern sold under Nitto, not Toyo.
J~

[William Bonsell]

Bill, Oregon region has historically been strongly against open tire rules, but I'm sure everyone is open to grandfathering or RA-1 and SM6 only. But the question is, what happens if the SM6 is way faster than the Toyo? At some point in the field that causes a disparity.

-bw

Bruce - There is always going to be a disparity within any class...About 5 seconds from front to back it seems. Why has Oregon always been strongly against an open tire. Seems like it might give some greater flexiblity.

Bill

ps: while I don't do a lot of SCCA racing it seems, this issue is important because Conference will adopt whatever decisions are made within Oregon Region SCCA.

[William Bonsell]

Personally I think we should make those guys who currently run 1:32.5 and faster run 888's and the rest of us get to run the Hoosiers. Sorry Kyle, you made the front pack last race and don't get the fast tires. Since my best is now a 1:32.6 I think 1:32.5 is the right cutoff point. This way we can all play together longer before everybody spreads out. Of course, I could just get some balls and drive faster and it wouldn't matter.

Keith can run the Nittos since he thinks they are cool!

Terrell -
I'm pretty sure you max'd out the ball size when you turned a 32.6.......now keep them inflated and do it consistently!

Bill

[Terrell Garrett]

Actually, I hammered the car less than normal for me. I think I need to put foam blocks under my shoes and rubber bands between my hands and the wheel. That should shave off another second or so. I need to join the smooth crowd if I expect to get any faster.

[Jim Boemler]

Bzzzzt, wrong answer, next

I got five bucks on my prediction -- put your money where your mouth is!

[Randy Thieme]

Bruce - There is always going to be a disparity within any class...About 5 seconds from front to back it seems. Why has Oregon always been strongly against an open tire. Seems like it might give some greater flexiblity.

Bill

ps: while I don't do a lot of SCCA racing it seems, this issue is important because Conference will adopt whatever decisions are made within Oregon Region SCCA.

Once of the "design goals" of a spec series is to save money by reducing the amount of equipment testing and R&D. In other words - eliminate the arms race. With an open tire rule people would feel pressured to buy two or three different sets of tires just to find the right one for their set-up and driving style.

Speaking of driving style, reading between the lines the Hoosier literature suggests the SM6 gets maximum grip at a lower slip angle than the RA-1, similar to the R-888 vs. the RA-1. That might suite my style just fine since I still don't slide the car enough anyways. (Terrell you hush!)

The conferance guys probably have their own stockpiles of RA-1s they don't want to throw away either. Grandfathering in RA-1s would be a nice goodwill gesture.

[Jim Boemler]

Grandfathering in RA-1s would be a nice goodwill gesture.

At least that would make the losers known in advance.