51 replies to this topic

[Jerry Cabe]

I'm starting this topic in response to Frank Todaro's question concerning Hoosier contengency in the Great Lakes Division on the general Spec Miata Forum.


"Jerry while we are talking Tires, what are the reasons that GLD cannot negotiate a tire contingency deal with Hoosier so that if we would win or podium in regional events with Hoosier we could get tires, like they do in NASA. I friend of mine runs I think GTS in Nasa and often there are only 4 or 5 competitors in his class and he often wins Hoosier tires.

It would make more people run them in a region that has open tire if they would give a few away."

Good question Frank. Maybe you are not aware that Hoosier currently has a strong SCCA Contengency Program, but only for National racers (I said it before Denny has a chance ). At each National race, 1st Place receives 2 tires, 2nd place 1 tire in each SCCA National class in which Hoosiers are allowed. There are silly requirements that you have to be running Hoosier tires and the like in order to qualify.

And as part of being the spec tire for SM, Hoosier will be giving away 750 tires each year, and will have track-side support at each event; again for the National drivers and events.

The NASA contengency program appears to be similiar to the SCCA national program. But that is my observation from reading the program with little actual data. Spec Miata was not included, but that probably was because of the spec tire (same as in SCCA National).

I have heard in the past that SCCA National Office did not want individual regions or divisions negotiating contengency deals that might interfer with their negotiations, but I have seen several in place that look like they would violate this if it is true.

In the GLD, Hoosier has been a strong supporter of Cincy Region's IT/SPEC*tacular with tires for 1st and 2nd place regional drivers in the past; but with tighter budgets, their support has had to decrease the past couple of years.

And let's not forget that at almost every regional and national event held in the GLD for the past several years, there has been a Hoosier team there providing track-site support to the racers. They will do anything they can to keep a racer on track. They even carried a few RA-1's in case someone needed them (at least up until this past year). I never saw the Toyo truck at our events!

My rambling does not really answer your question. I'll talk with my contacts at Hoosier and see if there is anything that might be possible. But there is a fair amount of effort required to administer a contengency program.

[dmathias]

One of my frequent rants, I know, but the regional racers support the Divisions as much, or more, than the national racers. I believe GLDiv regional entry numbers have been a lot higher in recent years, yet we are the forgotten members of the club.

Not sure why that is.

-Denny

[Jerry Cabe]

I failed to add that Hoosier does support the SCCA Regional racers at the ARRC at Road Atlanta in November. The ARRC is touted as the Runoffs for the Regional Classes (however this year they are allowing some national classes like SM, and Runoffs competitors to participate). For the 22 classes, they provide 4 tires for 1st, 2 for 2nd, and 1 for 3rd. If you just do some quick math - 22 classes with a potential of 7 tires awarded, times a guess at an average cost of $200 per tire, is more than $30,000 at that one big event.

[Jerry Cabe]

One of my frequent rants, I know, but the regional racers support the Divisions as much, or more, than the national racers. I believe GLDiv regional entry numbers have been a lot higher in recent years, yet we are the forgotten members of the club.

Not sure why that is.

-Denny

Not discounting the in-equality of the contengency awards for national and regional drivers, but as regional racers, we can benefit from the Spec Tire deal in SM. The $166 price for the SM6, vs. the $211 price for the same size R6 helps my budget. I've been benefiting from this type of pricing for the last 5 years because Hoosier already priced the SM6 to be competitive with the Toyo Spec Tire price. Add in the lack of having to pay to shave the tires, and in most cases they were delivered to the track saving me shipping. All of these reductions were futher compounded by reducing the sales tax I pay.

[dmathias]

The ARRC is touted as the Runoffs for the Regional Classes (however this year they are allowing some national classes like SM, and Runoffs competitors to participate).

Yet another instance of regional drivers getting the shaft - we can't even have our own championship event without national drivers horning in. Time to drop the "Regional Runoffs" moniker

PS: I was paying $145 for shaved Toyo, so I'm not sure how much "benefit" I'm receiving from the tire deal. In fact I could buy the SM6 for the same price prior to "the deal".

[FTodaro]

Jerry thanks for addressing this and will await what you find out. I agree on one of Denny's points, the GLD champ series is a pretty big deal with the number of events we run and then number of SM's we are fielding lately. I would think now that Hoosier is going to be the spec tire for SM that this would add incentive for Hoosier to prime the pump since they will have a shot at several more customers. Point is we are all going to be buying more Hoosiers this coming year and I would hope that they would view a regional contingency as good for business.

Keep us posted.

[Jerry Cabe]

Yet another instance of regional drivers getting the shaft - we can't even have our own championship event without national drivers horning in. Time to drop the "Regional Runoffs" moniker

Boy, you turned that one around about as fast as you went around in Sunday's race.

[dmathias]

Jerry, I don't know what hurt more, the 30 second main event, bending my car, or the reaming I received when I tried to apologize to the other driver.

SCCA's focus only on nationals has been a pet peeve of mine ever since SportsCar stopped publishing the regional results. I'm tellin ya, no respect!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I am not sure that tire contingencies help very many of the clubs racers. It seems there are about 5 guys in the region that rotate through the podium p1 through p3 so its not exactly like the everyday budget racer will ever see anything in the way of tire bucks. Now Mr. Deerwester I am sure would like to see a regional tire contingency deal!

[Qik Nip]

I am not sure that tire contingencies help very many of the clubs racers. It seems there are about 5 guys in the region that rotate through the podium p1 through p3 so its not exactly like the everyday budget racer will ever see anything in the way of tire bucks. Now Mr. Deerwester I am sure would like to see a regional tire contingency deal!

Kyle:
Not surprisingly, I do favor Denny's position!

Having said that my gut feeling is that the SCCA leadership isn't paying sufficient attention to the "customer" (or its' NASA competition). Regional racers represent the bulk of race entries and buy a majority of the tires but get nada. If I were king of such decisions, I'd reduce the National contingency support by 33% and toss the regional classes a bone ... Perhaps one fifth of the national award.

As an active regional racer, I suspect I buy as many (or more) tires as most national racers, but get zero support. That doesn't give me warm and fuzzies (but I'll live)
Rick

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Kyle:
Not surprisingly, I do favor Denny's position!

Having said that my gut feeling is that the SCCA leadership isn't paying sufficient attention to the "customer" (or its' NASA competition). Regional racers represent the bulk of race entries and buy a majority of the tires but get nada. If I were king of such decisions, I'd reduce the National contingency support by 33% and toss the regional classes a bone ... Perhaps one fifth of the national award.

As an active regional racer, I suspect I buy as many (or more) tires as most national racers, but get zero support. That doesn't give me warm and fuzzies (but I'll live)
Rick

I am also in favor of having the regional contingency, I was simply making thhe point that only very few will ever collect, and well... Denny is always talking about budget racer this and budget racer that. Well if there are no contingency for tires it somewhat levels the playing field for him, we all pay the same for tires, because I have a pro motor, data aq, scales and allignment eq., a full time mechanic on staff, coaching, and more things I could list but I am sure you get the point, does not give me an advantage to win free tires, I have to pay just like everyone else does! If there was scca regional contigency I would have gotten more than two full sets of free tires this year. That would be just another advantage I could list over the budget guy.

So I get what the scca's position is on this! That's why I don't complain when I would be one of those collecting on tires! I would think the scca powers that be are thinking along those lines as well but who knows maybe I am wrong.

I am always happy to help the budget races and have helped quite a few with data, setup, some coaching, parts from time to time etc, etc, mostly people who are hungry to improve go searching, some of the unlucky ones have searched and found me and ask for help which I have enjoyed giving. Time will tell how much help I was really able to give them.

[dmathias]

I am a (really small) budget racer, but I still managed to score some Toyo bucks this year at a NASA event.

I would love to see a "hard charger" award, and the occasional random drawing, eligible to regular series competitors.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I am a (really small) budget racer, but I still managed to score some Toyo bucks this year at a NASA event.

I would love to see a "hard charger" award, and the occasional random drawing, eligible to regular series competitors.

I would actually support that kind of award! I think that's a great idea. Don't think hoosier would go for that but I would not gripe in the slightest if that was the deal. But recognize someone like myself would win that kind of award when someone spins you in one of the qualifying races and I get to start in the back and run through the field albeit that would not be the norm.

I really have no hard feelings for budget racers, but I don't think any budget racer should have a hard time with my race program, I take my racing very seriously, I prepair well, I get my data and I and others that I trust anylize it, I get coaching just like I do for tennis or hockey or any other sport I care to be better at, nodody sends their kids off to school and expects them to teach themselves. There are rules and I follow them, I still have lots to learn as I have indicated that on most all of my posts, I want to be very good I want to be very consistent, a couple of the racers that I respect the most believe it or not is JG or SM21 and SM17 BM they almost never makes mistakes and almost always land on the podium. They drive like hell, their cars are always prepped and ready, they are always serious, and fiercly competitive!

Denny your cool in my book, there is nothing wrong with being on a budget, but you can't have things go both ways. Contigencies go to the pocketbook racer 95 percent of the time and you have been around long enough to know that!

Edited For CABE! The only one who is old here is you CABE or maybe it is just that grey beard! Denny is just seasoned, by all the hard core SM racing!

[Jerry Cabe]

Denny, I think Kyle just called you old!

[dmathias]

Kyle, you present a very reasoned argument - who did you hire?

Jerry, Some days I feel 25, some days I feel 85.

I could go the rest of my life without winning tires and be OK. I'm not concerned about personal gain. My real gripe is that regionals subsidize many division's (poorly attended) national programs and get nothing in return. Not even a stinkin mention in the club's magazine. I'm not sure the national/regional model works anymore - it divides a decreasing participant base. NASA model seems to make more sense.

PS: Kyle, who do you think did a lot of the work on the 'Silver 17'? Hint: me. (Talk about budget - I'm the cut-rate mechanic) I've said it to Brian's face, that car is a beater. It's really a testament to what a talented driver he is. Put him in a bells & whistles car and the rest of the field would never see him.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Kyle, you present a very reasoned argument - who did you hire?

Jerry, Some days I feel 25, some days I feel 85.

I could go the rest of my life without winning tires and be OK. I'm not concerned about personal gain. My real gripe is that regionals subsidize many division's (poorly attended) national programs and get nothing in return. Not even a stinkin mention in the club's magazine. I'm not sure the national/regional model works anymore - it divides a decreasing participant base. NASA model seems to make more sense.

PS: Kyle, who do you think did a lot of the work on the 'Silver 17'? Hint: me. (Talk about budget - I'm the cut-rate mechanic) I've said it to Brian's face, that car is a beater. It's really a testament to what a talented driver he is. Put him in a bells & whistles car and the rest of the field would never see him.

LOL I know its a beater, and know there is serious talent in the seat, but I have noticed that the Beater we are refering to is also always preped for the race, it doesnt just roll on and off the trailer till it breaks, although I have seen it break a few times. I don't know him very well but I would guess that the car at one time was a TOP car, and the talent has since been honed. With loads of talent less attention can be paid to the upkeep of your buggy unless you are going up against a field of top talent guys with TOP cars prepped to the max. I suspect that is why he is not racing the Dbl. Nationals. But again I dont know, so I am just guessing!

As for who I hired, I think that is a pretty well known fact! I have had other coaches along the way, and they have helped me nearly as much, and the Pro would have had a much harder time getting talent out of me if I had not recieved some pretty damn good coaching beforehand! The bulk of my coaching came from MrMagoo, and it is nice to see that we got his car sorted out for him so that his true tallent could shine this last weekend! I have been getting coaching since my first Drivers ed! Mr. Deerwester was even a most gracious teacher for a day, my first day in a SM! Boy did he ever open my eyes

[FTodaro]

I like Rick's idea of giving some of the National money to the regional events. When you look at the GLD schedule only about 25% of the events are national events. The rest of the year we are racing regional, why not share the love. Denny as for the point of them dropping coverage for the regional events, It was before my time as I am new, but it makes just as much sense to allocate coverage based upon participation, since most of our events and participation is regional, it only makes sense to give it a pro-rata share of the coverage.

We need to take this to the next step of discussion to request

[Qik Nip]

I like Rick's idea of giving some of the National money to the regional events. When you look at the GLD schedule only about 25% of the events are national events. The rest of the year we are racing regional, why not share the love. Denny as for the point of them dropping coverage for the regional events, It was before my time as I am new, but it makes just as much sense to allocate coverage based upon participation, since most of our events and participation is regional, it only makes sense to give it a pro-rata share of the coverage.

We need to take this to the next step of discussion to request

Amen Frank.

As I've said here (and elsehere), the folks at SCCA headquarters are not paying attention to the customer. They are fixated on the national classes and the Runoffs. Perhaps, as frank's implied, we need to start writing to our board members to try to change things?
One thing's for sure. If we don't ask for change it won't happen.
Rick

[dmathias]

I'm feeling rebellious today.

What we need is a nationwide Spec Miata driver's union that tells (not asks) all sanctioning bodies what we want, and what the rules are. They need us (entry $$$) every bit as much as we need them.

-Denny

[AJ Roderick]

I'm feeling rebellious today.

What we need is a nationwide Spec Miata driver's union that tells (not asks) all sanctioning bodies what we want, and what the rules are. They need us (entry $$$) every bit as much as we need them.

-Denny

If you run for President, I will vote for you