33 replies to this topic

[Todd Tagget]

I've been having this discussion with another friend of mine who's looking at building a SM car and as I posted I just picked up a donor car for my build. I've been reading a few of the other threads and am at a loss on a lot of the comments as to how much people spend on cars to be competitive. So please help me out here (and tell me where I'm wrong).

So we all use the same (relatively speaking), Suspension, engine, frames, tires, trannys.. I can see $7-10 to build a car without cutting a lot of corners,, Where is everyone spending all the extra money ?? I just don't see the $20-30k Enlighten me please!!

[Glenn]

I've been having this discussion with another friend of mine who's looking at building a SM car and as I posted I just picked up a donor car for my build. I've been reading a few of the other threads and am at a loss on a lot of the comments as to how much people spend on cars to be competitive. So please help me out here (and tell me where I'm wrong).

So we all use the same (relatively speaking), Suspension, engine, frames, tires, trannys.. I can see $7-10 to build a car without cutting a lot of corners,, Where is everyone spending all the extra money ?? I just don't see the $20-30k Enlighten me please!!

Labor, Cage, Engine, new suspension parts rebuilt trans, freshened diff, paint/graphics, data, PROFIT, Seat, getting the point? Drago posted a cost break down a short while ago, and it adds up quick.

Im 50/50 into a build right now and labor and engine are free and I have spent close to 7K and the cars NOT done. An SSM MAYBE for 7K-10K. A 99 with realistic work, FREE Labor and junkyard engine.......16KMIN.

[dstevens]

$23k is the difference.

I started mine at the end of last year and for a variety of reasons, family and health among them I've slowed the build. And I got a donor that was pretty beat and needed a ton more work (It was cheap, $1200 with a top) and I'm at about $10k and I do all my own fab and mechanical and still a couple/few grand from being done. A 10-12k car is cutting some corners relative to the pointy end of the grid. There was a build sheet from a Pombo car at http://mazdaracers.c...home-from-arrc/ that explains it better than I could.

Looks like Glenn beat me to the stripe.....

[FTodaro]

a decent doner car and a cage gets you to the lower number of your range, but the list is long, a good seat can cost 750, with belts 1000.00. do you want a fire system or a hand held. Data is 1000 +, cool suit, window net, clutch pressure plate, new calipers. torsen diff, good rad, suspension kit, Kill switch, toe hooks, window vents, I do not see a decent self build for under 15,000.00

[Keith Novak]

I've seen some pretty fast cars sold for $7-10k, but it will cost you more than that to build a fast car. Start with a 1k car, add 1k of suspension 2-3k for the cage, 500-1k for a hard top, 500 for inexpensive seat, belts and nets, 1k for a single set of wheels and tires, a few odds and ends like a kill switch, fire extinguisher, a couple wear and tear items and you're already over $7k for a clunker with duct tape numbers on the door. A built motor will cost you 3k used, twice that new.

Lots and lots of little things add up quickly even without a pro built motor. Everyone who's built one in their garage has a box somewhere with receipts for all sorts of hoses, belts, bearings, widgets that broke, accessories, etc. Many of us try not to comprehend how much those receipts add up to. When the box gets too full to stuff any more receipts in, we get a bigger box.

[Elliott Skeer]

on MOST occasions...Fast, Good, Cheap...now pick 2

[granracing]

So we all use the same (relatively speaking), Suspension, engine, frames, tires, trannys..

This is your difference right here. If one wants an all-out build, things add up quickly. A cage becomes more than just something to protect the driver. You build it the right way to help the car's handling. Most of us don't have the ability to do this ourselves, so it goes off to a pro shop. The trannys are not just stock. They are built, again by a shop. There are a lot of things that can be done to the car and dyno time spent making it better. Between just a top notch motor and cage, you're probably looking at around $10k not including anything else. You don't need this to go out, do well, and have fun.

comments as to how much people spend on cars to be competitive.

Competitive is a relative term here. A car which could be purchased used (buy, buy, buy!!! ) at your $7 - $10k can run up front in many regional races with the right driver. I've seen decent drivers get into a $50k and run mid-pack in a regional race. I've also seen very good drivers get in a $7,500 car and battle for the win at the same regional event. Now in more competitive fields such as the Runoffs, it's going to take both a top notch driver and built to run up front.

[Colin MacLean]

Think of it in terms of one part.

A 10K car (like my old car) would come with most likely the original 20 year old stub axles on it. A 25K build would purchase a brand new set from Mazda and install them. A 40K build would buy multiple new sets, completely disassemble them and rebuild one perfectly balanced set with minimal friction.

Do that on every component on the car and it adds up very, very quickly.

[Keith Andrews]

I spend money on reliability items. Bearings, engine, transmission, differential, brakes, electrical sensors, wheels, spares, etc. I prefer not to work on the car at the track so I go over and replace things before they fail. This stuff all adds up. Nothing worse in my opinion, than going to a race weekend and having the car break down. Then you get into safety items, decals, paint, driver preference features.

It is just like any other car you have purchased. It just depends on the options package you choose

[Tom Sager]

Doing things right the first time will cost more initially but is usually cheaper than doing things over later.

[Rob Burgoon]

Doing things right the first time will cost more initially but is usually cheaper than doing things over later.

Bingo. I think this is where it really adds up.

The $40K build could involve starting with a straight tub, then ordering 2 new subframes, 8 new control arms, 4 new brake calipers, 4 new uprights, and so on and so on because the $40K buyer/builder doesn't want to chase any issues as to why the car isn't fast. (did I forget $1K worth of new bushings?)

Then there's the cage, seat, other safety gear, lots of labor getting the seating position "just so" in our tiny cars, gauges and sensors data and such.

Notice that nothing so far *should* do anything to make the car faster, but we've spent a f*-ton of money already.

Then there is the speedy stuff like engine, tranny, wheelbearings, other drivetrain stuff to make the car quicker in a straight line.

Now put in $100 or $200 an hour or whatever Dave, Jim, et al charge for doing all this and your butt should reach full pucker.


Then you have cheap bastards like me that shrug off the fact that the car isn't straight, run nothing but junkyard suspension and wheel bearings (albeit repacked), put in a kickass engine from Race Engineering and a $80 tranny off craigslist and try to make up the difference with driver mojo.

p.s. if anyone rebuilds trannies for power gains that will pass a teardown and has the balls to offer a 6month warranty, let's talk.

[granracing]

Kessler Engineering is the shop I go to and I know he builds top notch race transmissions. (His specialty are Miatas.) Not sure you'll find anyone doing a warranty as the driver could be the cause of the issue.

The site is under construction but it includes Matt's contact information on the bottom: http://www.kesslerengineering.com/

(I am not directly affiliated with the shop. He's just earned my business and tons of respect for the work they do in addition to the quality.)

[Keith Novak]

p.s. if anyone rebuilds trannies for power gains that will pass a teardown and has the balls to offer a 6month warranty, let's talk.

Can you provide a 6 month guarantee you wont make bad shifts?

When looking at building a car on a budget, I would overwhelmingly lean towards reliability over pure performance. I think it was Colin Chapman who once said something to the effect that a perfect race car is built to the point where it disintegrates crossing the finish line. As a designer of British race cars, he was also responsible for one or two that disintegrated prior to the finish line in this pursuit of the ultimate flimsy little British car.

Having spent a bit of time chasing car problems more than the car in front of me, my advice would go something like this.... The engine and trans aren't your biggest concern starting out. Everything attached to them is a potential time bomb. Replace the clutch, and the associated bits because they're kind of a PITA to do between sessions and you can drive a few races with a trans that makes awful noises going into 3rd. You can learn a lot with a junkyard motor/trans and they're cheap. As it's often said, "They always seem to run the fastest right before they blow up."

Take everything else off. Airbox, radiator, every hose, and gasket that bolts to the outside of the engine. Replace all the hoses and belts, external seals and bits that wear out of general principle. A number of gaskets will be disturbed in to process. Order 2 of each and order them from Mazda Motorsports. (If you've buggered one up or had it roll into a dark corner of the garage, order 4) One is to make sure when you reinstall stuff you have a reliable gasket instead of a piece of crap. The other is because if you have to pull stuff apart again, you have another reliable gasket without waiting for the UPS truck.

I don't comment a bunch on fixing stuff because I'm a professional mechanic. I've made a bunch of errors, many due to not doing it right the first time and having plenty of time putting the car back together to reconsider my choices. Part of that process was realizing that you can learn a lot more about driving the car fast when you can actually drive the car, than you can spending many hours in the garage putting it back together.

[Rob Burgoon]

Can you provide a 6 month guarantee you wont make bad shifts?

I think I can. 150 track/race days, only 2 overrevs on missed shifts, and I never have tranny issues other than cracking a 3rd gear syncho after about 60 hours of track time. If I crack another 3rd gear syncho in the 6 months, there won't be a warranty claim.

The big problem is I hear a whole lot about transmissions suffering from sudden infant death syndrome.

[Keith Novak]

The big problem is I hear a whole lot about transmissions suffering from sudden infant death syndrome.

Yeah I'm not entirely sure what to do about that. I haven't had any completely let go, but I seem to have a problem with transmissions that grind going into 3rd after about 40 sessions. It's cheaper to get another junk yard transmission but I'm starting to wonder what the hell to do with all the old ones clogging my garage other than make a fire pit in the back yard with a mini stone henge of benches around it propped up on transmissions good for everything but upshifting into 3rd 2/3 of the way through a turn.

[Rob Burgoon]

Yeah I'm not entirely sure what to do about that. I haven't had any completely let go, but I seem to have a problem with transmissions that grind going into 3rd after about 40 sessions. It's cheaper to get another junk yard transmission but I'm starting to wonder what the hell to do with all the old ones clogging my garage other than make a fire pit in the back yard with a mini stone henge of benches around it propped up on transmissions good for everything but upshifting into 3rd 2/3 of the way through a turn.

Well, you can keep shifting and ignore the grind for quite some time, but I understand if/when another crack develops in that synchro, it's gonna be messy. When I get a grind I'll keep racing until I hit a gap to allow for replacement.

40 sessions? That's less than a standard 16 race single class season. You kill them quicker than I do! I do about 3x or 4x that in a season with SCCA, NASA, and the enduros.

Anyone have any tips on transmission disposal? Will the metalman take them for some $?

[Keith Novak]

It might be more than 40. I raced 2 classes this year and they changed the format where everything was a double but the bottom line is the same. What the hell do I do with all these transmissions that grind when I'm loaded up going into 3rd?

[dstevens]

Anyone have any tips on transmission disposal? Will the metalman take them for some $?

Around here they'll scrap anything. Last time I went the going rate for steel was $200/ton. AL is more but they check each piece to make sure it's really AL. If I had that many trans carcasses I'd learn to rebuild them.

[Jim Boemler]

If I had that many trans carcasses I'd learn to rebuild them.

Or figure out why they were breaking in the first place.

[Keith Novak]

Or figure out why they were breaking in the first place.

I know why I'm breaking them. To go fast I have a choice of either shifting 40% more than you weenies with your higher stock rev limiters (often mid corner), damage the motor, pussyfoot it around the track, or consider transmissions somewhat a disposable wear and tear item.