18 replies to this topic

[LarryKing]

So my 6-year-old radio system crapped-out. Googled 'racing radios', least expensive system I found was just under $500 for a 'starter' system.

Then I had the bright idea to search Radio Shack. Turns out they sell Midland, Cobra, Motorola, et al, all less than $100/pair for 20+ mile range 2-way radios.

Here's where I need the expert opinions. What is different about 'racing' radios that make their value 5x or more? And, why wouldn't a 'non-racing' system work just as well.

(Sometimes I think so called 'racing-application' products are priced based on all of us being foolish enough to pay it.)

-Bullwinkle

[steveracer]

My radios quit a few years ago. Local Motorola dealer wanted $400 each for the current model.

This place had them for less than half the price...

http://www.discounttwo-wayradio.com/

[Jim Drago]

I have used Motorolas that we used here in the yard in the past, not cheap stuff either and they never were much use in the car. You need to use uhf , not vhf as well ( or vice versa.. I don't remember) The base units that mount in the car are best IMO. I think you will find the radios they sell at radio shack will work well every time you pass the pit lane, but won't work on over half of the track.

PM sent

[Pete]

Before our first enduro my brother and I picked up the sampson starter package (http://www.sampsonra..._new/home_f.htm). The radios allowed us to talk along the more line of sight areas. We also used them to talk to each other when we were both driving. They don't have capability to use a roof antenna which cuts down reception. The expensive race radios are much nicer with more clarity and greater range, often opening up the entire track. If you are going to use the radios a lot I would rec the better units...

[FTodaro]

I have been thinking about a radio for some time. it looks like your options are either a 4 or 5 watt hand held system or you can go up to a 20watt radio in car. In the 20watt system, I assume that the crew is still using a 5 watt hand held unit so I wonder if having the bigger wattage in the car helps the driver at all in hearing the crew.

I would like to know from the guys using them if the 5 watt hand held system with an antenna is a good set up. If your going to spend the money on a better system the 20 watt set up is not that much more.

I believe its UHF

[Armando Ramirez]

I have been thinking about a radio for some time. it looks like your options are either a 4 or 5 watt hand held system or you can go up to a 20watt radio in car. In the 20watt system, I assume that the crew is still using a 5 watt hand held unit so I wonder if having the bigger wattage in the car helps the driver at all in hearing the crew.

I would like to know from the guys using them if the 5 watt hand held system with an antenna is a good set up. If your going to spend the money on a better system the 20 watt set up is not that much more.

I believe its UHF

We have Sampson's The "20watt PRO Road Racer Package, and are extremely happy with it.
The 20 watt in-car unit is on a permanent mount, out of the way - however, can be easily removed.
We have used it at Daytona, Sebring, PBIR, and Homestead and have loud and clear communication.

[LarryKing]

Another questions - do most racing applications radio users license them through the FCC? I just told today that legally it is required.

[Jim Drago]

Another questions - do most racing applications radio users license them through the FCC? I just told today that legally it is required.

I asked Larry the radio guy to change a frequency at Road America and he wouldn't to it because of FCC regulations? I thought it was strange? But he would not do it.

[LarryKing]

That's the problem I'm running into. Apparently all two-way radio devices must be licensed. I never did it and got away with it because I used the radio infrequently, and my location changed.

Here's what I've found out: there's nothing wrong with my radios. The company that made the system, Argent Racing, went out of business and most likely sold their frequencies to someone else, so now my radios can't communicate with each other. A local radio company 'may' be able to reprogram them, but I have to get a license.

Swell.

If anyone who can offer expert commentary I would appreciate it.

[Keith Andrews]

I'm not a radio expert but to my knowledge the frequencies used for two way radios are not owned per se. There is a range of frequencies in the two way band for everyones use. If you are interfering with another user you should change frequecies to avoid the conflict. If the radios are not communicating with each other, one of them is not on the same frequency as the other(or broken). A knowledgable radio tech can get you answers. A license should not be a big deal other than money and paperwork.

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

The guys I race with have run into this problem before. I can say that many of the frequencies that are used are in technical violation of the FCC. If you look on ebay or the internet you can get a programming cable and the software for cheap. These types of radios are not very difficult to program.

[LarryKing]

Heading to local comm. vendor after Xmass. They think they can reprogrammed them.

On a side note, the actual radios aren't that expensive, it's all the peripherals. Supports my theory if you call a product a 'racing application' the price quadruples.

Thanks Gentlemen.

[dstevens]

If you you don't know much about radios get some help from Sampson and he'll get you going. At the "day gig" we have one of the most complex, elaborate radio and RF distribution installations in entertainment technology. We have more than 100 carrier freqs plus spread spectrum and hopping schemes. Plus around 300 or so Moto MTX series radios in the theater alone. We go big or go home....

FCC....... Yep license depends on the freqs and use. Too much for me to get into now. The radio police likely won't bother you unless there is a complaint. Radios are like anything else is that you get what you pay for. Shawn will chime in (though I've used his competitors ) but build quality, power, agility of the frequency bands are all factors. Plus the added bonus you have to be concerned with helmet and car wiring and the quality of that plus making sure you have the right kind of connectors.

FYI, here's a peek at what we do. I don't think my corporate overlords would mind me posting.

http://www.lasvegass...pecialized-sup/

[Cnj]

The guys I race with have run into this problem before. I can say that many of the frequencies that are used are in technical violation of the FCC. If you look on ebay or the internet you can get a programming cable and the software for cheap. These types of radios are not very difficult to program.

As Brian notes, we are all technically in violation of FCC rulings when we use our radios. I have never heard of FCC penalties for these violations, but thats not to say it wont happen at a track near you. I am bemused to see adverts for 20 watt radios which require special licensing. 20 watts pushes signal a long way with good antennas and is definitely going to start attracting attention from authorities if you crash emergency channels in the area. On a practical note some thoughts:

1. Plan on UHF (the cheap units are typically VHF). There are several technical reasons for this.
2. Plan to spend some money and time on your antenna setup. Good antennas and placement is far more important than power. For long hilly racks a repeater unit will help a lot (but typically we're too cheap to use them and just complain)
3. Buy units that allow frequency selection (with software access). Not hard to change frequency at the track to match friends or snoop on competitors if you can figure out what they are on....
4. Five watts is pretty common. Dont waste your money on 2 watt units.
5. Buy units with selectable frequencies so that you can quickly choose a different channel if someone else is on yours.
6. You can buy good business radios used.
7. Get help from a pro who does this for a living. They will save you a lot of pain.

Like David Stevens I work in entertainment (and other stuff) and amoungst other things we design/specify large radio/wireless communication systems. As David notes it's complex engineering. That we achieve decent radio coverage at all on 3-4 mile hilly tracks along with 40-50 other teams, emergency crews and race control all using radios (with no frequency coordination) is quite surprising to me.

Cnj.

[Keith Novak]

I wouldn't worry too much about the FCC unless you're on channels specifically for emergency services. I had a neighbor with a 50' high radio antenna broadcasting with so much power I heard him talking through my TV speakers, computer speakers, and telephone receiver while trying to call the police to complain (a genuine hazard if you ask me considering if it was an emergency call I'd have been screwed). I was advised to leave a note on the guys door. They're not exactly driving around in high tech vans zeroing in on non-licensed broadcasters saying GREEN GREEN GREEN!

[dstevens]

The person complaining doesn't have to be an emergency service. it could be the gravel yard across the road or the construction crane people next door that is licensed. The ones that will shut you down fastest beside emergency services are local TV/ENG crews using freqs for backhaul from remote to studio. I too am surprised that club racing can deploy as many freqs, which appear to not be centrally coordinated. One reason tracks don't get hassled is likely due to the rural location and the fact it's on the weekend.

At the Bullring they used Frank's Radios to come out and provide service and coordination. Doubt anyone had a license and I was only allowed a listen only in our class so I used a scanner but they wanted me to buy a Raceceiver. The INEX classes had to buy a Raceiver because they were a title sponsor. I couldn't use a radio that had transmit capabilities regardless of if it was hooked up to the helmet. I did use radios a bit road racing the karts.

Good tip on used business radios. I wouldn't buy used batteries (though this time I'll hard wire) but radios and chargers some bargains can be found. But if you don't know your way around a radio or how to use the programming software it might not be such a bargain. As is the interface. It's expensive because to do it right it's expensive. Cheap, fast, good. Pick two.....

Shawn seems like a good chap, he's a racer and support the class and when I get ready to upgrade the radios he'll be my first call.

[Sampson Racing Radios]

Some good stuff here - if you have any more questions feel free to post or juts call the shop and ask for me.

Cheers, Shawn Sampson

[KentCarter]

I'm much happier with my radio setup now that I do it all myself. I have the software and cables to program my radios. I use a Kenwood TK-880 mobile with a custom-made wiring harness in the car and a Vertex Standard VX-231 as the handheld.

The TK-880s are available on ebay alllll the time since they are the most common radios used by police, fire, taxis, etc. They are bulletproof.

[Armando Ramirez]

We have Sampson's The "20watt PRO Road Racer Package, and are extremely happy with it.
The 20 watt in-car unit is on a permanent mount, out of the way - however, can be easily removed.
We have used it at Daytona, Sebring, PBIR, and Homestead and have loud and clear communication.

Take this open-ended offer - Call Shawn or any of his people.

I carry the FCC radio license card I have for my boats's radios.