61 replies to this topic

[pat slattery]

Is this legal or not?

[Mike Collins]

yes.

[FTodaro]

no wonder Pat is having a hard time keeping up with the 99's he is carrying a load of tar.

[juliancates]

Any idea approximately how much weight can be saved by stripping the undercoating?

[Mike Collins]

Depends on the car. 8+

[dstevens]

I like using something like an EZ Strip for that sort of material. Takes of the deadening compound etc without taking off as much base material as a flap disc or grinder and last muc longer than a Ro-loc, though doesn't give as smooth a finish. I got my last batch for about 9 bucks each locally (US made) but Roark has some offshores for under 5 bucks if you use the coupon code GRIT at checkout.

I got these CGWs at McFadden-Dale here in town.


ez strip 2 by Dave Stevens, on Flickr


ez srip 1 by Dave Stevens, on Flickr

[pat slattery]

I was looking in the GCR for that statement of legality, but was unable to find it. Is this rules creep?

[Ron Alan]

...

[dstevens]

I was looking in the GCR for that statement of legality, but was unable to find it. Is this rules creep?

Paint is open. That stuff on the bottom of the car is just paint. SM rules are pretty ambiguous for the most part. Rules and specs need to be measured and speced to insure compliance. Not some mamby pamby "if it doesnt' say you can then you can't". If there is not a quantitative measurement, it's tech shed legal. People cam bitch all they want about spirit and intent, but when it comes down to it, if it can't be measured or quantified, people, including me, will push those boundaries. For example, let;s say the undercoating removal is not legal. How is tech (those few regions that have tech in the first place) to know if that is the factory coating or some after market coating I put on that is half the weight. How can they tell if I have a heat coating in the exhaust manifold that is the same color as the piece? They can't. How about the inconsistency of the welds in the exhuast manifold? I've only seen a few and they've all had booger welds at the flange in various places. Can you tell if I got the die grinder out and used a micro tig torch to reweld the manifold to the flange to remove the boogers for maximum flow?

If you can't measure it or quantify it it's tough, if not impossible to objectively enforce the rule.

[Jim Boemler]

Are you saying you've modifiied the inside of your header? Are you saying you belive that to be legal? Ethical? Intended? Or just that you've never been caught?

Until now.

[Bench Racer]

Is this legal or not?

Pat, per undercoating the answer seems to be, yes within nasa & no within SCCA.

nasa 2011 Rule

3.1.16. All chassis/structural/electrical repairs, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory

procedures, specifications, and dimensions. Unless specifically authorized by the

manufacturer for repair or allowed by these rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding,

material addition, etc., is permitted. No acid dipping of the unibody is permitted.

Undercoating removal is permitted.

SCCA 2011 Rule

C.4.k. All chassis/structural/electrical repairs, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory

procedures, specifications, and dimensions. Unless specifically authorized by the

manufacturer for repair or allowed by these rules, no reinforcement, i.e., seam welding,

material addition, etc., is permitted.

Are there other written rules within nasa or SCCA that apply to undercoat?

[Jim Boemler]

Does SCCA allow you to repaint your car, David?

[Rob Burgoon]

Are you saying you've modifiied the inside of your header? Are you saying you belive that to be legal? Ethical? Intended? Or just that you've never been caught? Until now.

Prove it.

That's his entire point.

[Jim Boemler]

So back to square one with some people: if you don't get caught, you're a winner.

[MPR22]

So back to square one with some people: if you don't get caught, you're a winner.

If you don't expect your competitors to live in the gray area you might find another sport/hobby that isn't as notorious for pushing the limits on what's legal. Just sayin.

[Bench Racer]

Does SCCA allow you to repaint your car, David?

Do you remember this article?

June, 2008 GrassRoots MotroSports

Pros vs. Schmoes

"This 1994 Miata began its new life as a race car by being stripped to a bare shell. The team then removed all of the undercoating and sound deadening to reduce weight and make the whole car easier to work on."

Everyone associated with this ^ sentence backed off in a big hurry when it was requested they support the sentence with a SCCA rule.

Don't be side tracking the issue with your paint comment. Please site the rule witin the SCCA that allows the undercoating to be removed & not replaced.

[dstevens]

Don't be side tracking the issue with your paint comment. Please site the rule witin the SCCA that allows the undercoating to be removed & not replaced.

Undercoating in the automotive business is considered paint. I see nothing in either sanctions rules that define it as anything else. You and Jim B completely missed my point. I'm pleased that Rob gets what I'm trying to say. How do you know that the deadening I put back on the car is the same weight and spec? How many different vendors and batches of deadening has Mazda gone through? I don't see any thickness or specific info regarding the deadening in my FSM. The point, and forgive me for shouting...

IF IT CAN'T BE MEASURED OR QUANTIFIED, IT SHOULD NOT BE RULE.

Otherwise it's too objective particularly when the techs are part time volunteers with various amounts of training. That is in the regions where they actually have tech. That's not a disparagement to those that do volunteer. Depending on how sick I am (a PET they wanted to do 2 wks ago was just approved today, good thing I don't have a bureaucrat or some panel between me and my team of docs deciding what health care I need...) If I'm too sick to race I'll go help at some events. If I'm not well enough to do that I'll spend even more time here being one of them thar Internet blow hards. I'm confident my ass will be healthy enough to be in a car at the Buttonwillow school, though with the way this build is going I may have to rent a seat from Sami or Rush. Even then for the nationals I'll volunteer as well.

Dave

[dstevens]

Are you saying you've modifiied the inside of your header? Are you saying you belive that to be legal? Ethical? Intended? Or just that you've never been caught?

Until now.

If I was doing I'm not stupid enough to post about it in a forum. I was going to use a bit more colorful language but I don't think Drago would appreciate it. You can get Dave uncut on the blog.... and even that sounds a bit racy.

Can you stop me from calling Blake or Drago and having them send me every 1.6 exhaust manifold they have so I can flow bench every one? I've only seen the inside of a few, some have some welding I'd consider unacceptable, big, inconsistent boogers. How do you know I got one that has nice, slim beads? I don't see a diameter rule specing the diameter of the input side on the manifold flange. That should be a spec rule and as long as that dimension is met, you should be able to smooth the welds.

As for interior coating, many of them are made from oxide and carbon bases. Same stuff as rust and exhaust. Reckon you can find a lab that can tell what is intentional coating and what is the result of a junkyard manifold from a 200k mile plus, 22 yr old chick car? Am I going to intentionally cheat the rules? No ,not knowlngly. As far as you know... Am I going to push the hell out of the gray? You bet your . There is a name for people that push those limits. They are called racers. Some are even champions.

[Jim Boemler]

If you say you SHOULD be able to clean up the header, I'd agree with you, and support the rule change. But that's NOT the question! The question is "ARE you currently allowed to do that?" And the answer is a resounding and definite NO. That's "law" in the sport.

Is there a word for people who intentionally break laws? Yes, they're called criminals. The fact that some of them get rich and never get caught may make them "champions" in their endeavors. They're still ... well, words too stiff for your blog ... in my book. You cheat, you're a cheater, not a champion.

I'm always blown away that people who seem otherwise honorable will brag here about how they break the rules and get away with it. They should be banned for life instead. Racing, for people who deserve to do it, is less about winning than about being a winner. Cheating makes you a loser, even if you "win" a wooden plaque for it.

[/rant]

All of which is to say I didn't "miss" your point. As you rightly said, undercoating is paint. We have no specs for paint, and it's clear that paint can be replaced at will.

[dstevens]

Criminals? Really? Reckon that's a bit melodramatic? I guess it's not as bad as your Nazi (or was it Hitler?) post. There are no words too stiff for me or any of the few blogs I've done. A Barking Dog, now shuttered is from my touring days. My non disclosure agreements and social media policies with my current client/employers prevent me from publicly commenting in any detail.

Here's a good one to start. I worked for this dude a while back. He had a Project, his name was Alan. I can assure you that he was a Parson only in name sake. It's top posted so you have to read it from the bottom up. http://barking.roadd...ory/mexico-tour Basically it's the tale of what happens when you let your inexperienced, big fake titted trophy wife do a gig that requires a seasoned professional. I've been in the upper echelon of entertainment technology for 31 years now, 26 of those touring with some of the largest acts on the planet. Do you really think there's nothing I've done/seen/heard that has been too "stiff". In that context, stiff is good.