14 replies to this topic

[Brian Ghidinelli]

This is only a brainstorm so looking for feedback. No need to predict fire and brimstone...

* SM numbers have been down the last couple of years (we're still the biggest, but the track isn't full like it once was)
* SE30 has strong numbers locally with NASA and of the cars that have crossed over with us, their feedback has been very positive
* SFR entries overall are down, so we need to find growing classes to add to our mix
* Offering SE30s two groups to run in would improve our draw

So, how do you feel about letting SE30 run in Group 7 with a split start?

This would permit them to dual-enter in another group. They run pretty similar times to us and although they are a little faster in the straights and a little slower in the corners, they aren't too far off.


Obviously if we have really big fields (say, SM Festival), then we may have to address the situation if we reach the maximum cars on track. But, that hasn't been an issue for the last couple of seasons and can be addressed.

Thoughts?

[Dan Cooper]

From the one NASA race i did this year....Charlie, back me up here...the 50 min sprint race was ruined for me (and charlie) by some uncooperative E30 traffic. (I'm sure the E30 drivers would say the same about us)

Because like you said Brian, the speeds are similar. We are faster in the corner and just a little slower in a straight line which makes making passes stick much more difficult.

I think taking steps towards higher car counts is obviously a positive, im just not sure mixing Group 7 is the place to do it.

[KyleLoustaunau]

From the one NASA race i did this year....Charlie, back me up here...the 50 min sprint race was ruined for me (and charlie) by some uncooperative E30 traffic.

If you thought it was bad at Infineon, its 2X as bad at T Hill. Maybeeeeeee 2.5X

[Johnny D]

Brain, a little off topic but, what were the results from the survey and what changes are there going to be from it ???
J~

[DionJ]

AARGH! Have you ever bumped one? They're built like tanks. Part of the reason I don't like running with NASA. Don't get me started on Dwarf cars in "warmup"...

[Duncan]

I vote no. Echo the above concerns about the traffic.

[Charlie Hayes]

Dan I agree with you on the second race that we both got screwed. This can also happen with a slower SM. At the same time I think I have been saved multiple times with putting lapped traffic in between people I'm racing with. I'm not voting because I don't have the budget to run SCCA along with NASA. Either way you do it I vote no on mixing the start, it needs to be a split start!

[Ron Alan]

NASA...for profit organization, is one thing, and I get why they do it. But if SM's can run in group 1, 5 and 7...why can't E30's run in 1 and 5??

When you choose to run NASA, you understand the necessary evil that you have to deal with and can make that choice. If SCCA goes this same route then what choice do we have...they both become essentially the same. And when they become the same...odds are some may jump more to NASA....2 reasons. Prize money(Toyo bucks)paid to 14 spots and 6 events at Infineon!

Not that this thinking surprises me, but I'm pretty sure SM had the largest average car count of any run group last year? And Miata's account for the most 2 group entries. So why would SCCA consider messing up one of the great things about group 7...no mixed cars? Granted, we are spoiled compared to a lot of areas of the country, but I think the numbers justify it!

Since this seems to be about revenue, here are a couple suggestions.

1. Push hard to get similar contingency money(as NASA) which will be attractive to good racers with tighter budgets.
2. Instead of the lottery type give back(Thunderhill rewards), go back to a refund based on participation...or just flat out lower the entry fee's and forget about the give away(you can tell I'm not a gambler!)
3. More 2 day events with Fri test days

[Alberto]

...why can't E30's run in 1 and 5??

+1

So why would SCCA consider messing up one of the great things about group 7...no mixed cars? Granted, we are spoiled compared to a lot of areas of the country, but I think the numbers justify it!

+1

Since this seems to be about revenue, here are a couple suggestions.

2. Instead of the lottery type give back(Thunderhill rewards), go back to a refund based on participation...or just flat out lower the entry fee's and forget about the give away(you can tell I'm not a gambler!)

+100

3. More 2 day events with Fri test days

+1million
it will be harder for me to take off work for 3 day weekends in 2012. If you want my $ and participation, do 2 day weekend events.

[dp35]

I only voted no because there wasn't a HELL NO option. This is the #1 difference in favor of SCCA vs NASA. I've raced both & the E30's are the worst thing about NASA Spec Miata racing.

If NASA ever gets anywhere near the number of Spec Miata's that SCCA SFR already has, it will give them their own race. If that happens & the SCCA is running SM & E30 combined, there could be a mass exodus. That would be sad. Please don't F with The Sacred Cow.

[Ron Alan]

I only voted no because there wasn't a HELL NO option. This is the #1 difference in favor of SCCA vs NASA. I've raced both & the E30's are the worst thing about NASA Spec Miata racing.

If NASA ever gets anywhere near the number of Spec Miata's that SCCA SFR already has, it will give them their own race. If that happens & the SCCA is running SM & E30 combined, there could be a mass exodus. That would be sad. Please don't F with The Sacred Cow.

Tell us how you really feel Darin Oh, and since H E double toothpicks has been spoken.....+++++1 MIIIIILLLLIONNNN

[john mueller]

Due to the similar lap times but different advantages of each car WILL create an environment where their can be on-track issues. But, these can easily be resolved by the two groups talking before it becomes ugly to understand each other and find an understanding. If combined classes are required then I recommend seeking a different class to run with. Look for one that is appreciably quicker so the problems are minimized.

Down in SoCal we occasionally run with the SE30's and while I've personally never had a problem, I know several who have had on-track issues and I'm talking both ways (SMs have ruined SE30 races too). Therefore, we usually run with the Honda Challenge cars, we've has way fewer mid-corner meetings with them.

[Rob Burgoon]

Due to the similar lap times but different advantages of each car WILL create an environment where their can be on-track issues. But, these can easily be resolved by the two groups talking before it becomes ugly to understand each other and find an understanding. If combined classes are required then I recommend seeking a different class to run with. Look for one that is appreciably quicker so the problems are minimized. Down in SoCal we occasionally run with the SE30's and while I've personally never had a problem, I know several who have had on-track issues and I'm talking both ways (SMs have ruined SE30 races too). Therefore, we usually run with the Honda Challenge cars, we've has way fewer mid-corner meetings with them.

+1 Choosing classes to share the track isn't as simple as race administrators like to think. Picking classes with similar lap times can be a recipe for disaster, since one class will be slower in the corners and once you catch someone, there is no getting past without big help or sacrifice. This sort of scheme only works well when you have a green flag to flag race with nothing but fast drivers.

I think the hot ticket for mixing classes is to pick classes that have similar minimum corner speeds, but one class has significantly more power. This is why honda challenge works. Most of the hondas can easily get by and get clear of a SM. T1 cars also do well with SM. The closure rate can be a bit hairy, but at worst they will only affect one corner if the T1 driver isn't completely hopeless. Once the next straight appears, they make the jump to light speed and we're done with them.

The honda guys are a little rowdy which also fits well with SM.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

So why would SCCA consider messing up one of the great things about group 7...no mixed cars?

This is not just about revenue, it's about sustainability which is related but they aren't one in the same. If you're relatively new to the SCCA (like I am), you can't remember a time when the Miata didn't comprise 35% of all entries. But, such a time existed! In fact, it wasn't all that long ago. And in a nutshell, had SM not been fostered, the club would likely be out of business (and not just our club...).

The reason for the exploration is to consider not just the current sacred cow, but our future sacred cows. SM is definitely one of the biggest fish in the club (and specifically in SFR) but it won't always be. At some point SMs will be like new HP Sprites: some guys have been racing them forever but nobody new is building one.

1. Push hard to get similar contingency money(as NASA) which will be attractive to good racers with tighter budgets.
2. Instead of the lottery type give back(Thunderhill rewards), go back to a refund based on participation...or just flat out lower the entry fee's and forget about the give away(you can tell I'm not a gambler!)
3. More 2 day events with Fri test days

We are supposed to have equal Toyo support this year so we should be good on #1. The lottery system isn't returning but we are focused more on organizing the best racing program, not the cheapest one. We are continuing with the 2-day events and have some scheduling improvements for them as well so you will get two qualifying sessions.

[Ron Alan]

Sounds like some improvements are on the horizon...though really have never had an issue the way things have been...haven't been around long enough! And don't get me wrong, I'm all for a big E30 group. But you can't take what could potentially be your 2 biggest groups(near future) and put them together. Looks like the E30 ran in group 5 last year...if a Miata can run in group 1, why not a e30? Group1 had an average of about 20-25 cars last year..most of these cars will have no problem passing the E30 if they come around and lap. and this is assumming you have enough E30's in either Grp5 or 1 to justify a split start.

My guess is the E30 guys don't like sharing the track with Miatas(NASA)as much as the miata guys don't like it. The cars are just to close in lap times and no one in either group wants to let a faster(slightly)car get in the middle of the 4 car scrum in their own class they are currently racing with!

Thanks for keeping us in the loop Brian!