22 replies to this topic

[Chris Windsor]

Well Sebring and Homestead are in the books. Sounds like some good racing and the top several running close.

So I raise the question was there any tech and what?

[Charlie Hayes]

From the Sebring thread, there was a post race tech on the top 6 and whistled the top 3. No issues.

[Jim Creighton]

At both races, we impounded all cars and checked and marked RP's. We also checked tires, wt. marking & general appearance with 52 cars in impound at Sebring & 34 at Homestead. All was done quickly so those that needed to get ready for STL or STU could do so.

And at both races, we impounded top 6 & whistled top 3. No issues. In addition, the region had a compliance list and checked various items using their tech post race. In addition, we checked sway bars, steering racks, alternators & RP's post race.

We is Fred Clark, DA Tech SEDiv from Jacksonville, Fl & me, Jim Creighton, SM ARRC tech & Prod line chief at Runoffs from Atlanta, Ga.

[FTodaro]

Just out of curiosity what would be the issue with Alternators?

[Glenn]

Just out of curiosity what would be the issue with Alternators?

Really?

[Jim Creighton]

I started to answer but I'd rather not give anyone any ideas! You guys already know too much.

BTW, I've never had so many drivers tell me what a great event and what a good time they had this past weekend at Homestead. Region did a super job. Sit down supper for all drivers and crew Saturday night. Homestead Miami Speedway is the crown jewel in NASCAR tracks. And the track manager said they would be adding showers for next year. Weather a little cool, only got up to 74 degrees but the breeze off the ocean was nice.

[Bench Racer]

I started to answer but I'd rather not give anyone any ideas! You guys already know too much.

Was the check just that a complete weight armature was in place?

Or that the alternator was functional?

Maybe a check for a switch would also be in order.

It's the accumulative non used hp that adds up.

[dstevens]

I don't know about the chick car in particular but there are ECU kits and mods that require a modification of the stock alternator or a different alternator altogether, The tuner car kids use one called Megasquirt. There are others. My understanding is that on the ODBII cars the ECU and alt communicate. Any time you can manipulate that relationship between the ECU and the air/fuel system you could gain a performance advantage. My outlook on publicising the cheats is different than Jim's, with all due respect. I like the NASCAR approach, they show eveyone what was not compliant by putting the piece outside the tech garage for part of the day as a warning. Of course, large fines and suspensions help too but I wouldn't suggest fines in non pursed club racing.

FWIW, I wouldn't run a Miata in a 30 min race with no alt. On an NB I don't know that the stock batt could provide enough current for that long.

[FTodaro]

FWIW, I wouldn't run a Miata in a 30 min race with no alt. On an NB I don't know that the stock batt could provide enough current for that long.

+1 Dave, I had an alternator go on me two years ago, and had to keep the car hooked up to the truck and jumper cables till our session started, I felt like I was down on power at the end of the race. no cool suit and no power what a PITA it was.

[Jim Boemler]

Just a few data items. On the 2006+ MX-5, the ECU is indeed wired to the alternator. It serves as a very smart voltage regulator, that's all -- not quite "communicating" in any meaningful sense. Also no connection to AFR, although you could potentially disable the alternator that way; same effect as disconnecting it. Knowing Mazda, I'm guessing that they do disable the alternator at WOT, but I can't prove it.

The Miata battery has 32 amp-hour capacity. That means to drain it completely in a half-hour requires a 64 amp draw -- bloody unlikely with just the ignition working. Any given battery may be less than optimum, but a good battery should last a race with ease. If it doesn't, replace it.

[dstevens]

Jim, how many times have you run your Miata with no alt on a 30 min race? There is more than just ignition. There are cool suits, brake lights, data, trasnponder, fans. Are you taking voltage drop and heat loss into account? Look at what the tuner car kids are doing with the ECU and the alt. Which means you'd need a cheater ECU and a cheater alt. I don't know yet what the chick car needs to optimally fire. I'll admit that. But, an HEI needs around 13vdc to provice optimal spark. A 12 volt batt isn't going to provide that. You say it's a 64 amp draw to drain, but what's the optimum voltage? Ohm's Law, babe. The more current you draw from that source, the lower the voltage. And there is no alt to recharge the battery. At what point is the spark less than optimum? The tuner car kids do change the voltage regulators and remap the ECU which changes the AFM. Changing the alt alone isn't the issue. It's one part of changing the entire package. For example, Jim C couldn't tell if I flashed my ECU at tech for a better curve, From what they've posted, they didn't do pass or fails for the ECU. But he could tell by looking at non stock mods to my alt that something was amiss. It's not one thing, it's everything.

[Glenn]

Jim, how many times have you run your Miata with no alt on a 30 min race? There is more than just ignition. There are cool suits, brake lights, data, trasnponder, fans. Are you taking voltage drop and heat loss into account? Look at what the tuner car kids are doing with the ECU and the alt. Which means you'd need a cheater ECU and a cheater alt. I don't know yet what the chick car needs to optimally fire. I'll admit that. But, an HEI needs around 13vdc to provice optimal spark. A 12 volt batt isn't going to provide that. You say it's a 64 amp draw to drain, but what's the optimum voltage? Ohm's Law, babe. The more current you draw from that source, the lower the voltage. And there is no alt to recharge the battery. At what point is the spark less than optimum? The tuner car kids do change the voltage regulators and remap the ECU which changes the AFM. Changing the alt alone isn't the issue. It's one part of changing the entire package. For example, Jim C couldn't tell if I flashed my ECU at tech for a better curve, From what they've posted, they didn't do pass or fails for the ECU. But he could tell by looking at non stock mods to my alt that something was amiss. It's not one thing, it's everything.

A 99 + will NOT finish a 30 min race with a bad alt PERIOD. Additionally you risk leaning out the engine. FP guys run sans alt all the time BUT they are running a 1.6 and using aftermarket electronic goodies.

[LarryKing]

A 1.6 (SM) will not run very long off the battery either. (First hand experience when the main alternator terminal broke off - with almost new battery)

[Jim Boemler]

You seem pretty fixated on "the tuner car kids", Dave. News flash, we're not them, and we can't do things that they do. Second news flash, tuner kids are often not the sharpest tools in the shed.

But you're right, there are lots of factors that will make it so 64 amps isn't a real-world figure. And no, I don't know what the actual draw of a running 1.6 is -- if anybody's measured it, please post. I have indeed run without an alternator. When I bought me first car and took it out for the SCCA school, the alternator quite literally fell off -- both mounting bolts entirely gone. The car did stop, but unfortunately I don't know how long it had been running that long.

BTW, nobody can tell if your ECU has been flashed, because the 1.6 ECU doesn't have flash capability -- you have to physically replace the chip. As for battery draw, I don't use a cool suit, and you certainly wouldn't use one without an alternator. Brake lights are a couple of amps, but only for a very short period per lap. Lights are off, unless you're in a night enduro, which is clearly different. Data and transponder draw is negligible, and unless you're overheating the fans will stay off. Ignition really is the dominant current draw.

[Danny Steyn]

Jim, cant speak for a 1.6, but I would be surporised if a '99 will run for an entire race without an alternator. Feed your AF signal ratio to your Traqmate or other data-logger, and if you lose your alternator in a race, watch what happens to your AFM. If you dont get a couple of fried plugs and/or pistons I would be surprised. As Glenn noted above, it gets REALLY lean (high 14's and into the 15's as the voltage drops)

[Qik Nip]

Just out of curiosity what would be the issue with Alternators?

Frank:
I suspect that they aren't connected, or that they are smaller than stock in order to lessen drag on the motor..
Rick

[Jim Boemler]

Jim, cant speak for a 1.6, but I would be surporised if a '99 will run for an entire race without an alternator. Feed your AF signal ratio to your Traqmate or other data-logger, and if you lose your alternator in a race, watch what happens to your AFM. If you dont get a couple of fried plugs and/or pistons I would be surprised. As Glenn noted above, it gets REALLY lean (high 14's and into the 15's as the voltage drops)

That's a different issue from how long the battery lasts, but very interesting. I do log AFR, but since doing so I haven't lost alternator power.

[Glenn]

That's a different issue from how long the battery lasts, but very interesting. I do log AFR, but since doing so I haven't lost alternator power.

99's lean out more so than the 1.6 cause the fuel pump is used to control A/F. The 1.6 fuel pressure is much lower. We ran nearly 45 mins in an enduro several years ago, needed it to run 10 more to finish!

[dstevens]

You seem pretty fixated on "the tuner car kids", Dave. News flash, we're not them, and we can't do things that they do. Second news flash, tuner kids are often not the sharpest tools in the shed.

No fixation, dude. Is that supposed to be some sort of insult? Take the smiley face and shove it. The aftermarket ignitions these kids use are exactly the cheats that an SM will use to gain advantage. The kids aren't the one's with the smarts. It's the kats making the parts. And they have data to prove it. So you can keep talking out your ass, or provide some solid engineering data as to why these kits don't work. They work, Jim, the people that design an sell them know what the hell they are doing. I could put one of these boards in my 1.6 ECU and unless tech took it apart they wouldn't know. I'm going to need at least 13 vdc to drive in and a dry cell 12 volt batt isn't gonig to do that. Now, if I had a 16 volt Braille or Kenetic 16 volt i could make the race. But that;s not legal and they don't fit in the form factor for a stock trunk mount Miata battery. But. because of my backgound I could cut a gut the stock Panansonic and mod ti to be a 16vdc race battery,. Hell, I could even put gel cells in it for optimum performance. But that isn't the shit I'd cheat. This is a handling class, not an HP class. I'd see what gray areas of suspension, steering and handling I'd could invoke before I got to HP. If I get 3-4 mph better than the other guy throught the corner, I'm at a better avantage. Fast straights are for race cars. Fast corners are for race drivers. Races are won in the corners, not in the striaghts.

Is there a checksum test for the SM ECUs? Not that I know about. That's why they look at the other parts that need to be modified to see what you are doing in other areas. LIke the al voltage regulator. And I could even hide that somewhere else by modifying the one in the alt , bascially turning it in to a piece of wire and cloaking the real reg somewhere else.

[Jim Boemler]

The quote above is an "insult"?? That is, compared to pleasant rhetoric like "Take the smiley face and shove it", and "keep talking out your ass"? Really? This kind of talk from you is getting really tedious -- please stop it. There's plenty of room for disagreement about a subject, but if you feel the need to attack someone personally, find someplace else to do it.