28 replies to this topic

[Tom Hampton]

I'm looking at ways to add a brake pressure sensor to my data system. The Iron Canyon part looks like the ideal solution. But, I'm concerned about hanging the sensor out that far horizontally. I was thinking it might vibrate and crack over time. Am I being paranoid?

Alternatively, I could use a double M10 banjo bolt and 4AN hose, and remotely mount the sensor on the firewall.

Thoughts?

[forestdweller37]

Until I find an inexpensive sensor with 1/8 NPT threads for that Iron Canyon adapter, I'll continue with my calculated braking channel. It's based on this paper: http://www.jameshake...brake-trace.pdf

(Admittedly I've not looked that hard, but the only sensor I've been able to find was a Bosch unit w/metric threads.)

[Mark]

If this thing comes apart it won't be due to vibration. If it does break, I think you've got bigger problems to deal with. Much bigger. The adapter is machined from stainless steel with substantial wall thickness. Sensors can be a problem as you need something with around 1500-2000 psi at the upper end. I use the MSI 0-2000 psi sensor as that is what AIM recommends and all my cars have AIM systems in them. I know a few have used a male 1/8 NPT to female 1/4 NPT adapter to fit other sensors with no issues but I don't have any info as to specifics.

I'm looking at ways to add a brake pressure sensor to my data system. The Iron Canyon part looks like the ideal solution. But, I'm concerned about hanging the sensor out that far horizontally. I was thinking it might vibrate and crack over time. Am I being paranoid?

Alternatively, I could use a double M10 banjo bolt and 4AN hose, and remotely mount the sensor on the firewall.

Thoughts?

Mark

[Tom Hampton]

Define inexpensive...

Autometer 2240, $112?
Iron Canyon sells an MSI sensor that fits their adaptor for $149.

[Tom Hampton]

If this thing comes apart it won't be due to vibration. If it does break, I think you've got bigger problems to deal with. Much bigger. The adapter is machined from stainless steel with substantial wall thickness. Sensors can be a problem as you need something with around 1500-2000 psi at the upper end. I use the MSI 0-2000 psi sensor as that is what AIM recommends and all my cars have AIM systems in them. I know a few have used a male 1/8 NPT to female 1/4 NPT adapter to fit other sensors with no issues but I don't have any info as to specifics.

Mark

I agree the adapter looks plenty robust. I was more concerned about the sensor itself...particularly where the male NPT threads join the sensor body.

[forestdweller37]

Define inexpensive...

Autometer 2240, $112?
Iron Canyon sells an MSI sensor that fits their adaptor for $149.

That'll work. Thanks!
(Don't think Iron Canyon had the sensors back when I picked up the adapter.)

[Mark]

Can't speak for sensors other than the MSI but the MSI is pretty robust in that area and is very light weight. Keep in mind that these sensors have much less mass than the stock or the VDO sensors and are not subjected to the constant stress and vibration of a component that is attached directly to the engine block.

On a slightly different note, I do recommend getting the oil pressure sender off the block somehow though. Even the stock sensor.The brass adapters that are generally used to adapt a NPT sensor to BSPT are just too fragile. Dave Wheeler has an excellent solution, and maybe the best one, for this purpose as do some others.

Mark

I agree the adapter looks plenty robust. I was more concerned about the sensor itself...particularly where the male NPT threads join the sensor body.

Mark

[Tom Hampton]

Thanks, Mark. Yep, that is where my concern stemmed from.

I was looking at the MSI sensors on their web site. I can't tell which model you are selling, but it looks like they are all welded 316L, and are only 2" long x 5/8" in diameter. They don't look like your average sensor.

[Mark]

This one:

http://aim-sportline...PSI_100_eng.pdf

The MSI sensors are really nice. Very small and accurate. We use them for brake, fuel, and oil pressure. AIM techs say it is overkill but what the heck. Ignore all the plumbing in the install doc. We get rid of all that and sell just the sensor, not the kit referenced in the doc.

If not using the AIM binder connector you can cut the binder 719 end off and access the flying leads in order to connect to a non AIM system. Note that the MSI sensor requires a 12v reference voltage. Some data systems supply this voltage, some don't. Be aware.

I haven't found a source for the MSI sensor without the binder interface. I'm sure it is out there, I just haven't looked. I tend to fall into the trap of solving my own problems first and stopping the quest when I make my pain go away.

[Bench Racer]

I'm looking at ways to add a brake pressure sensor to my data system.

Thoughts?

Options:

Google, "banjo bolt brake pressure sensor".

Drill & tap a hole in the boss on the passenger side on the front of the master cylinder.

Install a "T" in the RF brake line high up on the firewall. Attach the pressure switch & you could always crack a fitting to let those nasty little air bubbles out.

[davew]

Again, this is my biased opinion.

BUY THE IRON CANYON PART!!!!

I do not sell them, so I have no vested interest. I purchase them at retail price from Mark and it is great. The best thing I have seen since my oil relocation kit.

Often it is not better to reinvent the wheel. Just buy the wheel that somebody else did all the expensive design work on.

Dave

[Duncan]

Couldn't agree with Dave more strongly. I have the Iron Canyon part and it made the installation of the sensor a five minute job.

Duncan

[Armando Ramirez]

Again, this is my biased opinion.

BUY THE IRON CANYON PART!!!!

I do not sell them, so I have no vested interest. I purchase them at retail price from Mark and it is great. The best thing I have seen since my oil relocation kit.

Often it is not better to reinvent the wheel. Just buy the wheel that somebody else did all the expensive design work on.

Dave

Will it work with a Traqmate system?

[dstevens]

Will it work with a Traqmate system?

If your Traqmate works with any M10 threaded sensor (for example the MSI) and if the software will allow you to set up a channel for the sensor then it will work. My experience with the Traqmate is limited to downloading the software and reading what others say. I've been using AIM products for over 10 years now.

[Todd Green]

If your Traqmate works with any M10 threaded sensor (for example the MSI) and if the software will allow you to set up a channel for the sensor then it will work. My experience with the Traqmate is limited to downloading the software and reading what others say. I've been using AIM products for over 10 years now.

That depends. I have a DL-1 and it outputs 5V as a reference. Does the ICM sensor part number start with M343? If it is M344...then odds are it won't work as that one expects a 10-30V reference voltage IIRC. (Or you'll have to provide the reference voltage separate from you data acq unit.)

Also looking at the MSI site they now only offer 1K and 3K psi units (MSP340). For those who are monitoring brake pressures, do you go over 1K in your Miata? The 1K units are easy to find. The 3K seem much more ellusive. (In quantities of one. I've received a quote for 10, which is 9 more than I need.)

Note I've bought a ton of parts from ICM and would be happy to buy part # M3431-000006-03KPG if they carry it so I can easily hook it up to my DL-1.

On a side note has anyone looked at the MSP300 series? They have a 2.5K psi unit and it seems to be cheaper than the MSP340, but virtually the same thing.

[Mark]

Just so there is no confusion - the MSI sensor I use is an 1/8 NPT thread which matches the adapter. It is not the M10 version! The AIM datasheet I linked to earlier is in error and I have confirmed that with AIM tech support. I think an M10 male threads in 3-4 threads before binding so it is very close but not the same.

The MSI 0-2000psi sensor is an AIM exclusive part btw - p/n M3441-000006-02kpg. The 000006 in the p/n indicates a 1/8-27 NPT pressure port. I can supply these with or without the binder connector. No difference in price though.

http://www.aim-sport...6-02KPG_eng.pdf

Most DAQ's expect an input voltage of 0-5V. As long as you can create a sensor curve based upon the voltage range then there should be no issues. If the DAQ manufacturer has a curve already programmed for the MSI M3441 series then it is a plug an play process otherwise you'll have to create the custom sender curve yourself based on the sensor manufactures data. NBD either way.

Todd - to answer your question regarding max pressures - we do see pressures well in excess of 1k psi. Something like 1.3k-1.5k psi max if IIRC so it is up there.

Mark

[forestdweller37]

So this MSI sensor that is intended for the AIM system...Does it contain it's own voltage regulator such that I could feed it the live 12-14 volts available in my car's electrical system? That spec sheet seems to indicate that it might. Or does it require a regulated 12 volt source (trickier)? I've set up regulated 10v sources, but that's really scraping the bottom end of the sensor's input range.

The next question: is the output curve based on 10-30v input published somewhere?

[Mark]

You guys are asking good questions. AIM has this particular sensor built to their specs. Based on my experience with the fuel sensor that I build, the AIM 12v reference voltage is not very well regulated if at all, so my intuition tells me that the MSI has a VR built in as otherwise the output voltage would be all over the place which would not make any sense at all for a sensor such as this unit. I believe the sensor output curve is a straight line so if that is the case: 1v=0 psi, 5v=2000psi, but I will check and report back on both questions.

Mark

So this MSI sensor that is intended for the AIM system...Does it contain it's own voltage regulator such that I could feed it the live 12-14 volts available in my car's electrical system? That spec sheet seems to indicate that it might. Or does it require a regulated 12 volt source (trickier)? I've set up regulated 10v sources, but that's really scraping the bottom end of the sensor's input range.

The next question: is the output curve based on 10-30v input published somewhere?

[Mark]

Todd,

I stand corrected on the psi. Checked two of my runs and see peaks nearing 800 psi max. Data is from a 99 SM if it matters.

Mark

[Todd Green]

The MSI 0-2000psi sensor is an AIM exclusive part btw - p/n M3441-000006-02kpg. The 000006 in the p/n indicates a 1/8-27 NPT pressure port. I can supply these with or without the binder connector. No difference in price though.

Yep, talked to MSI today and AIM buys enough to get their own part/specs. Just the last 6 is the pressure port type (field). The issue is the 2nd 4 (3rd digit) in the part number. A 4 means 10-30V. A 3 means 5V which is what my DL-1 outputs. An engineer from MSI is scheduled to call me back tomorrow. I'll ask about the VR in the part and if you can just feed it 12V directly from the car. I'll report back with what they say. (I'll also be seeing what the difference is between the MSP300 and 340.)