127 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Looking at the number of people signed up for the Runoffs, the lack of entrants is surprising. I have my opinions, curious to see what others are thinking . This year the schedule was reduced and the time commitment could be less, but in actuality, if you plan on testing, you will be there 8 days or so.

Some common opinions


too expensive
too far
too much time
I can't compete at that level
I dont care to compete at that level
I don't like the track
Poor economic climate
Runoffs qualification process, didn't qualify
fear of sleeved blocks and drilled cranks
We have good races locally, no need to go to the Runoffs for a "race"
The Runoffs and Runoffs prepped cars are what is wrong with SM



This is last years final qualifying, If I have your status wrong, please note!!

Green Attending / registered Red not attending Pink likely attending but not registered uncertain is yellow Blue is new entry but likely coming

Jim Drago

Elivan Goulart

L. Patrick Sandlin

Steven Gorriaran

Danny Steyn

Tom Sager

Shawn Slattery

Voytek Burdzy

Andrew von Charbonneau

Alexander Bolanos

Jerret Gerber ( don't think he qualified this year?)

Sammy Valafar

David Bednarz

Chris Haldeman

Tom Fowler did not qualify

Craig Berry

Tony Coello did not qualify

Michael Collins dont think he is racing

Brian Ghidinelli dont think he is racing

Adam Poland

Tom Kraft did not qualify

Harry Manning dont think he is racing

Tom Brown

Steven Powers

Charlie Campbell

Tyler Dahl likely not racing

Luke Bickham

David Palfenier

David Pintaric

Phil Cummings

Ted Cahall

James Suhr

Randy Cummings

Chip Vanvurst


Did not race last year, but likely attending this year

Todd Buras
Patrick McGinnis
Andrew Carbonell
Mike Asselta

Matt Reynolds
Bruce Anderson
Bruce Anderson II
Naumburg, Peter


That looks like about 20 cars, maybe 25 with unexpected entrees?

[pat slattery]

Over the top prep
don't like the long week
MONEY!!!!

Its a great facility, don't like it for a 1.6, but would like to see it at the Indianapolis road course. Put the race on a course that the Over the top prep cars don't at least have the opportunity to go an practice for 1-2 weeks at the facility before the big race. At least the low budget guys would not be at that disadvantage.

That said the runoffs are a prestigious event, and SCCA is the best that we got for amateur racing, but one time on the track every day is nuts. Why couldn't we have 2 qualifiers on one day, 2 more the next and than lets race.

[Jim Drago]

I like the idea of no testing, no races there all year. Love to go somewhere else and I love Road America, but not a great track for our little cars to put on a national championship, especially since the Sprints are already here.

Pat
Are you guys coming?

[pat slattery]

I like the idea of no testing, no races there all year. Love to go somewhere else and I love Road America, but not a great track for our little cars to put on a national championship, especially since the Sprints are already here.

Pat
Are you guys coming?

No we won't qualify to make it,

[granracing]

Trying to get the family to buy into something like this is not an easy sell. Given the amount of time and money necessary, there are so many other options and it's hard even for a racing addict to justify it.

[suck fumes]

I'm seeing the same trend this year as I saw in 2008..... 50-60 at mid ohio nats, and 20-25 at runoffs. From this point forward I doubt I'll ever attend another runoffs at road america. The next runoffs I would be attending with scca will be at the F1 track assuming they have it there and can afford it anytime soon. NASA champs will get my money for a while. Better hospitality, better attitudes from workers, and CHEAPER!!!

[Jim Drago]

Good points guys.. Keep them coming, sitting in CRB meeting today and explaining the position of the class.. We are a different animal than most other classes as we already knew Any suggestions to improve participation aree welcome as well

[DrDomm]

If you want another backmarker, and can get me a waiver, I'll come.

Newbie opinion...Aside from all the expense of a week long event, there are so many other opportunities in Spec Miata to have a great time for less money (time/travel)...this isn't true for some other classes. The only time they have large competitive fields is at the Runoffs. Most SM drivers can have 30+ car fields on a (near) weekly basis with less than 8 hours of travel and 2-3 night hotel stays. It's a great class, but this is one of the casualties. I think.

[Cnj]

Jim,

Im not sure I agree with the premise of the question - specifically I'm pushing back on the implication that the measure of success is maximum car count. Changing the question to "why are the very best in the country not all signing up" is more useful IMO (assuming they are not). Stacking the deck with mid and back field markers like me to pick up car count lowers the value of the Runoffs. Going all out to get the top runners of the country to the big race makes for a worthy win even if the numbers are a little lower. I don't look down on F1 because GP2 drivers dont get to play. If you are good enough and are willing to make the sacrifices (money, time, training, preparation) then you get to play at the big show and make the show better.

So then a seperate question is what it would take to get me to the Runoffs. I attended in 2008 and it was a great learning experience. I spent around $20-25K on that event (new motor and prep, pre-race to learn track, Eric Foss coaching, event itself) and discovered that I was still far from prepared to play at that level. So I determined that if I went again (with any hope of a top half finish) I needed to start prep 18 months in advance. This prep woud need to include a complete car rework, at least one race weekend (preferably two) at the host track, coaching, a disciplined and intense race program to get seat time and fully test car - and finally the understanding that I may need to swap the motor out more than once. I have estimated that to play at this level my budget will be $45-65K for that period excluding car damage. I will bet that several at the front are easily putting this kind of money into their program. To think that I am simply going to attend Runnoffs without serious money and effort and do well against the best drivers, the best cars and the top level of preparation is a fools paradise. Hence I will sit on the sidelines, without any angst, until I am ready to make the commitment worthy of the event. Others may have very different motivations.

cnj

[Mike Asselta]

Put the race on a course that the over the top prep cars don't at least have the opportunity to go an practice for 1-2 weeks at the facility before the big race.

Pat, that is an awesome, awesome idea....a real marquee track that no one has the home court or testing advantage. Love that.

Indianapolis
Austin F1
Nascar Infields (drawbacks, but great to bring in fans to see the action, maybe qualifying races needed to reduce final field size)
Other track that SCCA "quarantines" for the year

[Mike Asselta]

Jim,

Im not sure I agree with the premise of the question - specifically I'm pushing back on the implication that the measure of success is maximum car count. Changing the question to "why are the very best in the country not all signing up" is more useful IMO (assuming they are not). Stacking the deck with mid and back field markers like me to pick up car count lowers the value of the Runoffs. Going all out to get the top runners of the country to the big race makes for a worthy win even if the numbers are a little lower. I don't look down on F1 because GP2 drivers dont get to play. If you are good enough and are willing to make the sacrifices (money, time, training, preparation) then you get to play at the big show and make the show better.

So then a seperate question is what it would take to get me to the Runoffs. I attended in 2008 and it was a great learning experience. I spent around $20-25K on that event (new motor and prep, pre-race to learn track, Eric Foss coaching, event itself) and discovered that I was still far from prepared to play at that level. So I determined that if I went again (with any hope of a top half finish) I needed to start prep 18 months in advance. This prep woud need to include a complete car rework, at least one race weekend (preferably two) at the host track, coaching, a disciplined and intense race program to get seat time and fully test car - and finally the understanding that I may need to swap the motor out more than once. I have estimated that to play at this level my budget will be $45-65K for that period excluding car damage. I will bet that several at the front are easily putting this kind of money into their program. To think that I am simply going to attend Runnoffs without serious money and effort and do well against the best drivers, the best cars and the top level of preparation is a fools paradise. Hence I will sit on the sidelines, without any angst, until I am ready to make the commitment worthy of the event. Others may have very different motivations.

cnj

Hey Craig, can I borrow your car for about a month? Please put a new engine in it first.

[Jim Drago]

Hey Craig, can I borrow your car for about a month? Please put a new engine in it first.

Can I sell you the engine and get your car prepped for you? I'll cut you 25% discount

[Mike Asselta]

Can I sell you the engine and get your car prepped for you? I'll cut you 25% discount

Ssssshhhh....I'm thinking

[Rob Burgoon]

Other track that SCCA "quarantines" for the year

Interesting, but not really practical. What's to stop a bunch of SM guys piling into an HPDE day or NASA race? Or rent the track outright?

[Mike Asselta]

Interesting, but not really practical. What's to stop a bunch of SM guys piling into an HPDE day or NASA race? Or rent the track outright?

DQ? Loss of test day and practice privileges?

Seems like the revenue from the run-offs opportunity could offset the loss of revenue/participation from other events? Run-offs participants allowed as instructors or workers?

Just tossing it out there...

[DrDomm]

More newbie opinion to ignore...Car count does matter in SM. It shows that the class is about inclusion, not exclusion. It shows that racing can be "affordable", and that you don't have to spend $45K on one race. It shows that while it is about competition, it's not all about winning. It is about having fun. If only 20 cars show up at Road America, prospective racers will have a different impression of SM National racing. Sad.

Here's a couple of ideas...Hoosier gives everyone who qualifies for and starts the race a set of tires. Mazda gives everyone $500 worth of parts credit. Prohibit other SCCA SM races in September, or have SCCA pay for a future National entry fee. Give out prizes to NA cars. I don't know. Just make it fun to run 40th. SM participation is important for the SCCA.

[FTodaro]

I would like to come, I have qualified, the things keeping me from attending....
1. my track traveling partner does not want to go, and this would be my first time going.
2. Very close to the NASA nats which i have a shot at at least being competitive.
3. Never set foot on that track I could not even find the restrooms.
4. I do not know where to buy good local Pale Ale beer and I would never go to the track without it
5. I want to go but those cheaters, Charbs and Alex B are going and will get into my head.
6. I ran out of the special grease

Seriously, If I could fix #1 i would consider going Rubbing my chin as i type.

Jim i think the economy can play a roll for many things are not improving as quickly as we would like. This cost does start adding up and folks just make choices.

Oops I posted in the wrong spot can a moderator move me to Jim's questions on runoffs.

[dstevens]

More newbie opinion to ignore...Car count does matter in SM. It shows that the class is about inclusion, not exclusion. It shows that racing can be "affordable", and that you don't have to spend $45K on one race. It shows that while it is about competition, it's not all about winning. It is about having fun.

This

Club racing should be about inclusivity, not exclusivity. I've done several national events, with class sizes capped at 40 to class sizes open at about 75 or so. The one I'm most pleased with was 19th out of 73 and I had a blast. Being competitive is relative. Most of the money made in the class to the club is from the middle and back, both national and regional. The issue of slower cars is a straw man. The problems over the last couple of year that I've seen on tape have been from front runners. In club the Runoffs are a big deal but in pro racing as long as you make the field on time and have a proper license you can race. Club racing should at least be that way.

I understand that there might need to be some punch system to support the regions. Trying to artificially create exclusivity will hurt the SCCA in the pocket book. I think some of the reluctance to go is as CNJ says. The class has had a count spiral in the last few years due to more competition and top level prep, the economy, etc. That happens in every popular class, regardless of the vehicle or race type. Running that level of car and commitment is out of reach for most of the class. And others that might go are either reluctant or not able to qualify. I think something like 8 punches total (four weekends) and being fast enough so you aren't a moving chicane should be the minimum. If you show up and aren't fast enough, you go home. That happens at short track event or drags, pro and amateur every weekend and at the big dog events.

If I were running a business and had 40 people that wanted something in that peice range, I'd do my best to accommodate them. It's grassroots club racing and some folks have lost sight of that.

[Roger Caddell]

We raced in the Runoffs in 2006 and 2007 so it has been a while and it seems the game has changed some, BUT... I still think it is doable and would do it again if the circumstances allowed.

Sure the cars are more fully prepped ($$), but I think a small group or family team still can work hard/smart and run at the front. Certainly it will take a solid driver, solid prep, some budget, and some luck, but still possible IMO.

I think that many make up their minds that it takes mass $$ to be competitive, then that opinion takes on a life of it's own and pretty soon nobody thinks they can be competitive as a small team and threads like this start to try to find out why. I just don't agree that it cant be done on a "budget".

Even in 2006 when we won, we trimmed our racing schedule to just the minimum National races we needed to qualify, spent the money we would have spent on racing on the best "prep" parts we could afford. We spent a LOT of time in the shop making the car the best we could and quite a few trips to the chassis dyno. We had a good time racing that year but we did put quite a few of our eggs in the one "Runoffs" basket.

Then we headed to Topeka with a crew of unpaid family members and a couple of unpaid friends that were attending the event anyway. Grandpa towed it to the track with his motorhome as a part of his planned vacation, we slept on the floor of the MH and in the trailer to save $$.

It turned out well for us, could it be done the same way again? I think so.

[Jim Drago]

For what it is worth, I spent 2-3 times more in 06 than any year since. Spent money foolishly and wasn't ready to spend it. What Roger says above is correct. I have been the most competitive in the last three years and I have spent less each year and far less than people think. My car is generally always ready before the Runoffs, we go through it, but nothing crazy, brakes, hubs tires, nut and bolt and general maintenance. My biggest expense is tires, accommodations and time away from work, definitely NOT car preparation