22 replies to this topic

[Sampson Racing Radios]

Great write up on built to spec exhaust for a 1.8 in the NASA SpeedNews!

http://www.snmagcurr...ation/?i=128324

[TEAM MEDICARE]

Interesting. Has anyone tried this?

[Alex Bolanos]

Interesting. Has anyone tried this?

Probably not, for $850 including the rear section and no real dynos posted anywhere I'd rather buy another set of tires. At least we know new hoo hoos are worth .5s on their first two cycles

[john mueller]

Interesting. Has anyone tried this?

I know of a few. One of the guys reports better exit torque.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Normally you need the torque when your putting it in, not when your pulling it out...

[Sphinx]

Borla has had a long relationship with Mazda. For instance, they were the OEM supplier for the 2nd Gen RX7 mufflers. But what I don't get it is why the article would reference the Springfield Dyno exhaust as the baseline but offer no hp comparison.

The increased hp and torque claim is solely on the 1.8L, not the 1.6L. And it is not backed up with numbers.

[Jim Drago]

I can tell you that I have a stack of mufflers in the corner of my race shop. We have equaled the SD exhaust with a few even thought we bettered it several times. Every time we go back and retest, it is dyno noise or SD is still better. I will waste some more money and test this as well at some point, but I bet at the end of the day, our cars will still run a SD exhaust. For what it is worth, all of our cars,,, MIne, Berry's and Sandlins ran the SD exhaust at the Runoffs, we seemed to do all right on power As did the car of Patrick McGinnis that we built that set the new track record.

[Jamz14]

I have a copy of the Dyno sheet for the Borla Exhaust compared to the SD exhaust. The sheet I have was used partially as the basis for the article. It was done on a NA8,on the same day. 3 different pulls. First pull on an SD, second pull on the Borla, and the 3rd pull with an added muffler to the Borla. PM me with an email address if you would like me to send it to you.

The car used for the dyno testing wasn't making peak power to begin with. Will the curves translate to a car that is tuned to the ragged edge, I don't know. But I don't see why it wouldn't.

[Alberto]

Long thread on the topic on Miata.net:
http://forum.miata.n...ad.php?t=461298

[Jim Drago]

I have a copy of the Dyno sheet for the Borla Exhaust compared to the SD exhaust. The sheet I have was used partially as the basis for the article. It was done on a NA8,on the same day. 3 different pulls. First pull on an SD, second pull on the Borla, and the 3rd pull with an added muffler to the Borla. PM me with an email address if you would like me to send it to you.

The car used for the dyno testing wasn't making peak power to begin with. Will the curves translate to a car that is tuned to the ragged edge, I don't know. But I don't see why it wouldn't.

With all due respect.. Three pulls is an absolute waste of time.. Do you know how many pulls to determine the accuracy of these claims? Literally a minimum of 50, more than likely over 100. You have to series of A-B-B-A ETC.. to do three pulls I see people making the same claim with plugs, plug wires etc.

I don't sell the SD exhaust..just giving some factual info. Here is generally what happens with the minimal pull method.. I have seen this many, many times.. I will use spark plugs as an example.
You come in run on the dyno with plug A.. You make "x" Hp, you record, you look at the graph etc.. all the while car is cooling, fan blowing.. Then you change plugs, put wires on and start the next series of pulls and magically you pick up 1-2 HP. This is nothing that you would not have picked up if you did the same thing and just let the car cool and ran again. Nice cool intake charge with trans and diff fluids at or near operating temperatures. If you are not experienced in your dyno testing and do multiple a-b-b-a testing, you are wasting your time and your money changing to things that not only may not be better, but in all likelihood could be worse. I have done this, so has many others along there way trying to find there way. Proper testing is paramount! I don't even look at the graphs until after the first set of 6-98 pulls and car is fully at operational temps etc.

That is not to say that borla may not be better, but with the data above, no conclusion can be drwan at all, positive or negative.

Jim

[Jamz14]

Jim,

I didn't think you were being insulting to me so none taken. I made zero claims on the validity of the pulls. Just telling people what I personally knew about these pulls. For all I know, Borla has done 10K pulls and they felt this graph was an accurate representation of what the average person could expect. So I hear you and all, but we both don't know exactly what this represents. Could be nothing as you point out, or Borla could understand exactly what you are saying and have done the 100 pulls. Just making the graph available to people that mentioned the article had no dyno data.

That being said though, in the absence of doing the 100 pulls you mentioned, I think published dyno data is at least a place to start. Some of us don't have the budget to buy and throw in the corner piles of different exhaust. Some of us have to budget really tightly and count on guys like you and SD and Borla to help with the detailed research you are talking about. Exactly because your team runs SD exhausts is why I originally chose, and still run an SD to this day. However, because I someday want to be P1-P3 and be taken seriously by all the experienced people in SM, I am always looking for something to make a little more power.

As far as you not selling the exhaust, isn't it East st that handles the sales for the Mazdaracers store when you click the link at the top of mazdaracers site that sells the SD exhaust? If not, who runs that store?

Thanks,

James

[Jamz14]

No good deed goes unpunished.

[Johnny D]

Something good did come out of it...
You / we now know 3 pulls means very little.

And if somebody tries to sell you spark plugs after 3 pulls, they're not magic beans.

Everyone is learning here, some more than others. Some statement are BS but for you to test and figure out for yourself. YMMV.
Hopefully this doesn't need a page reply as well.
IMO,
J~

[Jim Drago]

James
I couldnt open link and thought you based your info off three pulls.. my apologies. We will likely test oneat some point.. When we do I will post something here.
Jim

[Jamz14]

Johnny,

Prayer granted. ADBB.

[Ron Alan]

Johnny is harmless...pay him no mind

[davew]

I will agree with Jim, You need more than a single dyno pull to prove anything. We are looking at 2 horsepower as a huge gain. There are lots of variables that can get you 2 horses. Air temp, humidity, barometric pressure, tire pressure, tightness of straps, tire diameter, trans temp, diff temp, allignment ........

Last week we tested engine oil on the dyno. No I will not share the results !!! We did 19 different oils from 9 different manufacturers. Same car, same day, same conditions. Air was consistent all day. We did not even take it off the dyno to change the oil. I have a set of "dyno only" tires and wheels to take that variable out of the equation. Total of 201 pulls over 6 hours. 10-11 pulls with each oil. 5-6 pulls, let heat soak/cool off for 5 minutes, then 5-6 more pulls untill numbers stabilize. I feel this is a 95% accurate picture. The sample was only on one car with one motor. So there is a chance of variations.

For an exhaust, I would baseline dyno, change exhaust and redyno, put original back on and redyno, put new one back on and redyno. Then try it again on several cars before stating the new design was better. Do that on a 1.6, a 1.8, a 99, and an 01 and you will have lots of dyno time to prove a point. And you should be re-optimizing the timing, fuel pressure etc for each test. I would say at least a dozen cars with 500+ dyno pulls would be required to properly test something like this. Maybe Borla has done this extensive research. I do not know if they have or have not.

I use the SD exhaust exclusively. I also have a bunch of exhaust systems that are gathering dust in the corner. I do not resell them for various reasons.

People talk a lot about prep level on cars. It is testing like this that seperates the great cars from the average cars. I use Voyteks car as my test car. I have almost 2000, TWO THOUSAND, pulls on that car since July of last year. We have tested exhausts, oils, spark plugs, plug wires, air filters, alternators and a few things I won't tell you about. I have found a lot of items that magazine articles say work, that simply do not work. Just because you read it on the internet does not make it true

Dave

[pat slattery]

I will agree with Jim, You need more than a single dyno pull to prove anything. We are looking at 2 horsepower as a huge gain. There are lots of variables that can get you 2 horses. Air temp, humidity, barometric pressure, tire pressure, tightness of straps, tire diameter, trans temp, diff temp, allignment ........

Last week we tested engine oil on the dyno. No I will not share the results !!! We did 19 different oils from 9 different manufacturers. Same car, same day, same conditions. Air was consistent all day. We did not even take it off the dyno to change the oil. I have a set of "dyno only" tires and wheels to take that variable out of the equation. Total of 201 pulls over 6 hours. 10-11 pulls with each oil. 5-6 pulls, let heat soak/cool off for 5 minutes, then 5-6 more pulls untill numbers stabilize. I feel this is a 95% accurate picture. The sample was only on one car with one motor. So there is a chance of variations.

For an exhaust, I would baseline dyno, change exhaust and redyno, put original back on and redyno, put new one back on and redyno. Then try it again on several cars before stating the new design was better. Do that on a 1.6, a 1.8, a 99, and an 01 and you will have lots of dyno time to prove a point. And you should be re-optimizing the timing, fuel pressure etc for each test. I would say at least a dozen cars with 500+ dyno pulls would be required to properly test something like this. Maybe Borla has done this extensive research. I do not know if they have or have not.

I use the SD exhaust exclusively. I also have a bunch of exhaust systems that are gathering dust in the corner. I do not resell them for various reasons.

People talk a lot about prep level on cars. It is testing like this that seperates the great cars from the average cars. I use Voyteks car as my test car. I have almost 2000, TWO THOUSAND, pulls on that car since July of last year. We have tested exhausts, oils, spark plugs, plug wires, air filters, alternators and a few things I won't tell you about. I have found a lot of items that magazine articles say work, that simply do not work. Just because you read it on the internet does not make it true

Dave

Ok Dave, don't tell us what oil, but are there some oils that make a difference or is it more hype.

[Keith Novak]

Aside from the power output, does it FIT any better than the SD exhaust?

[Alex Bolanos]

Aside from the power output, does it FIT any better than the SD exhaust?

Being Borla I would imagine the fitment is spot on. The only way an exhaust could fit worse than an SD is if it turned up and went through the shifter hole...