20 replies to this topic

[Brian Ghidinelli]

I attended the NORPAC division meeting yesterday and heard from Butch Kummer and Jeff Dahnert from the National office on the Majors program. I'm cautiously optimistic about it both on a national level and regional level. I'd like to throw out some food for thought as we make progress on deciding our tire for 2013.

We have 3 tire choices for 2013:

• Current RA1 (safe, completely known, not completely loved)
• New Toyo RR (a 2-groove slick like the Hoosier, lots of promise but even more unknown than the Hoosier was last year when we made a decision)
• Hoosier SM6 (the official National spec tire, now with a year of real-world data behind it)

As a spec class, we're primarily concerned with keeping budgets reasonable so you can attend more events. However, the fun factor of driving the tire, the ability to dual-enter other classes and be competitive and the ability to cross over to NASA events locally also play a part as does our excellent support from Toyo's distributor AIM tire and Ron Cortez.

By now, you may have seen the poll that I posted to people who ran the Hoosier last year:

http://mazdaracers.c...age__mode__show

Here's what I find interesting - by a 2 to 1 margin people say they got less sessions out of the tire. But they are split 50/50 on whether or not they would switch back to the RA1. That means there is something to the tire which, even if incrementally more expensive, may be worth giving a second look. I don't want to belabor issues like the magic lap, heat cycle count, benefits to no shaving or the predictability of the tire (all things outlined in the thread associated with the poll above).

Instead, here are a few things I'd like to hear thoughts on:

• Last year we ran 4 National races (2 Nationals and 2 Rationals). The current plan is to do two Double Rationals this year so the issue of Regional vs. National tire will reappear like at the Sonoma Sprints. My goal is to get it so that you can earn points for both simultaneously this year unlike last year. That will only be possible if we are on the Hoosier, otherwise you are ineligible for National points.
• SFR has been approached about running a new Majors event. It's something like a BFG Super Tour which has a lot of pre, during, and post-event promotion and reporting by the National office plus proper post-race champagne podiums, trophies and interviews. I attended a Super Tour event at Buttonwillow two seasons ago and it was a lot of fun.
• While we are not currently a major National racing region (or coast...), the Runoffs are coming west. Butch and Jeff said as much and you can read it in print from Jeff here. "West" could be as close as Sonoma or it could be as far away as Miller but there were a lot of locals who headed to the NASA Championships when it was held at Miller and I have to assume that having the Runoffs near by would spur a lot of our drivers to participate.
• The Hoosier would impede cross-over from SCCA to NASA locally at least through 2014 when the SCCA Hoosier and 2015 when the NASA Toyo contracts are up for renewal again.
• Oregon and Cal Club both run the National tire so any other choice limits the ability to crossover between SCCA regions.

When it comes to crossover, a rough cut analysis on my part indicates we have more entries from Oregon and Cal Club running with us than we get from NASA. The Hoosier would obviously increase the likelihood of that continuing and/or expanding. Of our drivers who also run with NASA, the majority run the season opener in February at Sonoma but few other events.

A final key issue is support: Ron Cortez at AIM has done awesome by us, including putting together a Toyo contingency program for the region. It is not equal to the NASA program (nor is the Hoosier contingency program) but it is thanks to his support that we have it. Ron has stated he does not make much on the Hoosier so his ability to continue supporting Group 7 should be factored in.

That's what I've got for now... looking especially for feedback from people who ran an SFR event this year!


PS - banquet reg is open, who will I have a drink with this year? And if you haven't, please vote in the BOD election.

[Tom Sager]

I don't know if this helps or not and I have no familiarity with your division's recent tire rules or participation, however, in the Central division we have a class called SMT (Spec Miata open Tire). It's Spec Miata with any tire allowed. It's run at Regionals only. Usually about 80% of the Spec Miata entries will enter the SMT class also. If you did this, my guess is you'd have a big SMT class at a Rational which would include many of the National drivers plus the Regional drivers and quite possibly some NASA drivers that would come and run Toyos. It also makes it easy for 2 drivers to race one car on the same weekend and we see some of that too.

[dp35]

Brian - thanks for sharing that info, and thanks for working hard to find the best solution where there will be no right answer. I see good reasons for any of the three options you describe.

Tom makes an interesting point - there is a fourth option: open tires (or perhaps either SM6, RR, or RA-1). This could be the best of all worlds. If neither tire company will provide a decent contingency program, they don't deserve exclusivity.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

I don't think open tire promotes close, competitive racing and I for one would vote against it but that's just me. I think a single tire is in both the spirit and best interests of the class (although I agree with you about lack of contingency). I'm hopeful that contingency in general will get reworked when the Majors program is fully established in 2014.

[Alberto]

Representing someone from the back third and as a Regionals racer, I'm more interested in either Toyo option than I am the Hoosier. Devil you know.

[plane]

This is a "one design" group. The actual tire we run makes very little differnce in who wins. The tire choice difference seems really small in terms of actual lap time/performance. since we are all racing on the same tire, as long as it does not suck then any of the choices is fine. The real issue is that tire choice will drive costs and complexity which will increase or decrease overall participation. As long as the guys at the front have a list of 2 to 4 tires that are all close enough (not perfect, but all good) then the choice should be the cheapest to run, which can be cheap tires that get rplaced every weekend or expensive ones that have lots of consistent heat cycles (realizing that each track is different). I think we need to remember that Great is the enemy of Good and not get to fancy.

[plane]

I don't think open tire promotes close, competitive racing and I for one would vote against it but that's just me. I think a single tire is in both the spirit and best interests of the class (although I agree with you about lack of contingency). I'm hopeful that contingency in general will get reworked when the Majors program is fully established in 2014.

Brian - I agree. Open tires makes the guys at the back feel like there are secret setups and cycles etc and they need to spend moeny to test. A single tire allows knowlegde to trickle down and makes those of us at the back happy that we are driving the same cars and set up and the diffence is the driver not $ or something else.

[Brian Ghidinelli]

Representing someone from the back third and as a Regionals racer, I'm more interested in either Toyo option than I am the Hoosier. Devil you know.

You don't know anything (at this point) about the RR though? Remember what happened when we switched to R888 which by all accounts is a better tire? Guys at the front seemed to like it but others not so much...

[Alberto]

You don't know anything (at this point) about the RR though? Remember what happened when we switched to R888 which by all accounts is a better tire? Guys at the front seemed to like it but others not so much...

You are correct. I know very little about the RR other than what I've read about it's specs (same compound) and Holifield's performance at the Illgen Enduro. I wasn't around for the R888 experience. I know plenty of people that run the Hoosiers in other classes though. I defer to your experience.

[Ron Alan]

Not sure how many people in our region actually are on here and keep up with this discussion. I personally don't get the local SFR emails and updates so I'm not sure if this is being discussed in that format. But what I do know is delaying a decision any latter than necessary helps no one. I hear rumors of early 2013 which makes me scratch my head(hope my info is wrong).

I know Brian is working hard to gather info which is great, though I'm sure the final decision is not his. It would seem the Hoosier is in play which is a good thing. Being on a R compound tire for 2013 would be a great thing! Hopefully the RR gets at true test at the upcoming 25Hr...this data will be golden!

[Johnny D]

Maybe this helps. You've listed everything up top. Plug them in and see what you get. Budget, fun, dual entry, cross over, AIM, etc.
http://www.wikihow.c...ns-for-Yourself
J~

[Sacslider]

Any idea when a decision will be made?

Starting to plan for next year and would like to know.

Thanks.

[Johnny D]

My guess, after the 25, but what do I know.
J~

[Ron Alan]

Any idea when a decision will be made?

Starting to plan for next year and would like to know.

Thanks.

Delaying a decision will only hurt our region IMO.

[plane]

So if we assume that NASA and SFR choose different tires.... Any thoughts on where the larger run group will be for people who can't afford 2 sets of tires (4 sets in reality, maybe 5 or 6 including rains)? This was my first year and it seemed like SCCA had larger Miata Groups.

[Alberto]

So if we assume that NASA and SFR choose different tires.... Any thoughts on where the larger run group will be for people who can't afford 2 sets of tires (4 sets in reality, maybe 5 or 6 including rains)? This was my first year and it seemed like SCCA had larger Miata Groups.

SCCA in my experience. I haven't been at a SCCA event in the last 2 years where there weren't 40 cars or more in the SM field.

The timing of the decision is largely irrelevant to me. The season is over. Make the decision a couple of weeks before the first race so I can buy new tires if needed. My RA1s are pretty much done.

I can afford to do one event a month from a time commitment and money perspective. SCCA's schedule meets that mostly. I may cross over to NASA running PT if RA1 is the choice or do NCRC, Checkered Flag or any other group for the rather long gap in the summer of 2013.

[Ron Alan]

Alberto can speak for himself, but I would totally disagree. An early decision hurts no one and helps many. No one wants to be testing on a new tire opening weekend. Like Craig, a lot of us would like to have plenty of time to find track days, scrub and test tires, set ups and what not.

I heard another encouraging bit of data from a E30 driver. Running in a different class he has put 17 heat cycles on his RR's and they are still going strong! I wont say he is the fastest guy but he is no slouch

My guess is if good data comes out of the 25hr on the RR, it stands a good chance. But if not, i hope the Hoosier is the only option...especially since the schedule shows 2 Rational events. And we would get to have the H2O Hoosier

[Sacslider]

With Multiple conflict weekends between NASA Norcal and SFR SCCA, I don't think crossover is a big concern this year.

The fact that there will be the the two largest SM races of the year held on the same weekend is disapointing to say the least.... Each will dilute the other. Both will be a big deal with larger than normal groups and both will be held at world class tracks.

[Ron Alan]

With Multiple conflict weekends between NASA Norcal and SFR SCCA, I don't think crossover is a big concern this year.

The fact that there will be the the two largest SM races of the year held on the same weekend is disapointing to say the least.... Each will dilute the other. Both will be a big deal with larger than normal groups and both will be held at world class tracks.

So right Craig...total bummer! As far as SM goes, I would guess based on this year the local NASA crowd may lose a few guys to run with SCCA and the top Northern guys who come down. But hopefully the Southern NASA crowd will fill those spots at Laguna...though we did have 4 or 5 make the tow for the Rational this year at Sonoma. But my guess is more top SCCA guys will be crossing this year just to get the opportunity to run Miller. I actually feel our local NASA may pick up numbers this year based on several factors. Time will tell.

[alangj]

Just wanted to add my $0.02 worth:
I have run Hoosiers in ITX since about mid-season this year, after it became clear that Hankook was not going to be able to provide the C51 compound tires anytime this season. I found them to be slightly faster (maybe about a second, on avg) than the RA1's, but they have an annoyingly short life span and you cannot judge their usefulness by looking at them, as they go out while they still have plenty of tread left (keep very close track of your heat cycles!). I've gone thru 2 sets since mid-season and I am not a great fan. I found them to be a definite step down, performance-wise, from the Hankooks, which may yet return to the US. I now also have a set of RR's that i have one track day on and I think I will love these tires. They are at least as fast as my Hoosiers, right off the stickers, and a good second faster (at Laguna) than my RA's.
I haven't read all the tire threads, but I will assume that the teams that used the RR's for the Enduro have weighed in, as well.
al