95 replies to this topic

[Bench Racer]

If the bright folks on this board can come up with a better mouse trap on go/no go compliance tools then I applaude them as well. A rule or regulation is only of value if it can be easily enforced.

How about we get back to concepting a better mouse trap. As Danny said a while back, Drago, Collins, Wheeler, Steyn, Dan, whoever, what are your thoughts on post #46?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

How about we get back to concepting a better mouse trap. As Danny said a while back, Drago, Collins, Wheeler, Steyn, Dan, whoever, what are your thoughts on post #46?

well who wants to trape mouses when we can start a whole new (i mean OLD) debate on sealed injuns?

[Bench Racer]

sealed injuns?

What the F _ _ k, you duck taping a minoritys mouth?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

is an injun a minority? I thought it was uder the hood

[Caveman-kwebb99]

hmm

[Bench Racer]

Wsa going to present another concept. Must be the guys in the know have this relief cut gauge all figured out. This concept would be using the valve seat angle to center the tool with instead of a a go/no-go gauge a dial indicator bore gauge would be adapted so that a decimal measure could be viewed.

Happy Thanksgiving day to all.

[AW33COM]

There are plenty in SM that can afford to race just about anything they want to. Most who buy or develop top sm's do it because they are competitive people. Everyone wants the best car they can race within the rules. When speaking to friends and customers and even competitors, the most common answer I get to car prep is " I just want what everyone else has" Very few if any have ever asked for a car better than the rest. To get what "everyone" else has at the front of a competitive class, it means you have to develop a car to the rules. You don''t have to cheat, break or even bend the rules. The engine is certainly a big part of the equation, but 95% put too much emphasis on the engine and not enough on the entire package. My opinion has remained unchanged, long before I ever built my first SM has always been the same. Build or buy the best legal car you can. If you start there, then you can work on driving and set up and take the car out of the equation. NONE of us is so good to start with a mid to back pack car and expect to win, NO ONE! Our class is great in that a very inexpensive car can be built from a used 100k miata, no one said you could win in that car, but you can race it and have fun.

I agree with the above almost 100%. You play by the book. Those are the rules and you're a champion according to the rules. You have fun, competition, and more. Nothing wrong with that. What I'm saying is something else:

I sincerely believe Mazda Miata racing had a potential to be something special, and it was ruined. Spec Miata can be more fun, more competitive, much more fair, much cheaper, more high profile, much simpler, and more. You can accomplish this by the following:

0. Select a car from the same year (99) only.
1. Build every car the same: power, weight, handling, safety, aerodynamics, brakes, parts, setup. Do not build it according to the rules. Build it to a script, of exactly same parts put together the same way. Anybody with a script can build a car like that.
2. Brand new sealed motor with the exact same tune up. Dyno the engine just in case to make sure it shows the same power.
3. You can’t change anything.

There it is people. Every new driver coming onboard has the same shot out of the gate for half the price. Cars would be identical to a point where you could even swap drivers/cars during a second race.

All the sudden a competitive car costs $16,000 as oppose to $35,000. No setup cost per race as you can’t change anything. All you buy is tires and fluids (regular car maintenance). We race each other as in actual racing. No more engine building/setup battles, escalating costs, protests, ever chasing competition. There are other classes for that. Here you simple drive. If anybody puts this together I will be the first person to convert.

Just in case: I'm a slow driver and I do not care. I use Spec Miata only to learn how to drive.

[Jamz14]

I sincerely believe Mazda Miata racing had a potential to be something special, and it was ruined. Spec Miata can be more fun, more competitive, much more fair, much cheaper, more high profile, much simpler, and more. You can accomplish this by the following:


2. Brand new sealed motor with the exact same tune up. Dyno the engine just in case to make sure it shows the same power.

Scahbi,

I personally don't agree with you. I don't think Mazda Miata racing is ruined or seriously suffers from any major problem. If complete sports car newbies such as myself can buy a donor car, prep it in 2 months with a reasonable cost investment, fielded it with a newbie sports car driver, move from the very back of the field at the begining of the season and move to the front of the midpack and in reach of the lead group.......I'd say that is a pretty successful class. My budget is very very modest.

And again in my opinion, sealed motors do not offer anything close to performance parity. I've raced sealed classes and in my experience they can be even more expensive than speced but non sealed motors. Seals only provide the illusion that everyone is doing and spending the same. The rich guys will spend a fortune matching parts, building relationships with the seal houses, and then seal up their motors. They already spend the money matching and selecting the perfect MAFs and ECU and everything else. The only difference will be that the cost will go way up for guys like me having to pay someone to seal my motor when I buy the engine, and then have to repay to have it sealed after the seals are broken during scrutineering. Yes sealed motors are still opened for inspection at times,........ as they should be.

[LarryKing]

How do we know it wouldn't work if we've never tried it?

[Jamz14]

You don't Moose. But others have. It's not that it doesn't work, it does. It just that it doesn't have the intended affect that Schabi mentioned in my opinion.

[LarryKing]

Seems to work for SRF - what's different with SM?

[Jim Drago]

0. Select a car from the same year (99) only.

Great idea, could even make it 99/00 as they are the same. Are you going to be the the guy who tells everyone with 90-97 cars and 01/05 cars that they are no longer welcome? How do you think that would go over? I agree picking one car from the start was the right answer , but the tube is out of the toothpaste IMO.

1. Build every car the same: power, weight, handling, safety, aerodynamics, brakes, parts, setup. Do not build it according to the rules. Build it to a script, of exactly same parts put together the same way. Anybody with a script can build a car like that.

Another good idea.. Who is going to supervise this? At what and whose expense? Similar to Nascar, Hendrick cars still seem to do better than the rest? why?

2. Brand new sealed motor with the exact same tune up. Dyno the engine just in case to make sure it shows the same power.

What is same power? within 2-3 hp? That is worse than we have now. Again who pays for this? What do you do when your new sealed engine makes 4-5 less in your car than it does in someone elses car? Who runs this program? It would have to be independent.

All the sudden a competitive car costs $16,000 as oppose to $35,000. No setup cost per race as you can’t change anything. All you buy is tires and fluids (regular car maintenance). We race each other as in actual racing. No more engine building/setup battles, escalating costs, protests, ever chasing competition. There are other classes for that. Here you simple drive. If anybody puts this together I will be the first person to convert.

Your costs are WAY off. there are more than 16k in parts in a new build not counting an engine. If you want everything the same. that means everyone needs to start with a good car with new bushings etc, not a 160k wore out donor? How do we do that? than add in a sealed engine, as tight as we would need them to be, a cheap price would be 5000 per. Not sure who races in a car that you can't set up.. but.... Like many things, very well intentioned, some good ideas, but implementation and reality get in the way.

Jim

[Ron Alan]

This is a tech shed tool thread! There is another thread that discusses how to make things equal for all...lets keep FAIRNESS discussions there.

Back to you DD

[Jamz14]

You mean the SRF guys are all racing within a second of each other and there are no back markers and everyone is happy and doesn't complain about costs,and some cars don't seem a lot quicker than others, and there is never any talk of people stretching the rules?

Maybe you are right Moose. It just that in my experience I have seen well funded teams buy 7 motors just to piece together one righteous motor to seal. No different than what they do now, except now you have to pay to have someone else to inspect and seal it.

Personally I would reconsider the class if it went to sealed motors. So probably what would happen is that a different set of people will be happy, and another set of people will be pissed and leave. Net zero benefit to the class.

[Jim Drago]

Seems to work for SRF - what's different with SM?

Why are our times routinely closer than SRF? Why does Brian Schoefield always pull the field by 3 car lengths on every straight? You don't think the same thing would happen in SM? Why were so many complaining about cheating in mx5 cup? Everything was sealed there too?

[LarryKing]

Personally I would be happy if SM went back to the original rule set. Newbies have no idea how much rules creep has occurred.

You can't base every comparison using a national field as an example. Take your average regional, there is probably the same spread from front to rear in SM as in SRF. The difference being with SRF you're pretty sure it's driver related, with SM could be driver, could be wallet.

It's that whole lack of hope thing.

Toothpaste over the dam.

PS: What was wrong with mandating MazdaSpeed's spec exhaust? What was wrong with stock airbox for all years?

[Jim Drago]

on tools.. just been busy with other stuff
Post what your thinking

[Bench Racer]

Your costs are WAY off. there are more than 16k in parts in a new build not counting an engine.

Jim

Jim, I presume 16k in parts, means $16,000.00 in parts. Inflation must have happened on 99 plus parts that didn't happen on NA parts.

RA, With respect to or lack there of please look at the dimensions and tolerances of the valve stem diameter, the valve guide hole, the maximum relief cut radius and first relief cut tool and report back.

http://scca.cdn.race...-11_reduced.pdf

[AW33COM]

Jim, I don't agree with you. You wrote:

What is same power? within 2-3 hp? That is worse than we have now.

Sure you have better, but it costs $35k, and on top of that you have it better only for the front runners. Not every guy in this sport has a $35k car, or less than 2hp only like you suggest. Maybe guys at the front with more expensive equipment are equalized, but they are not equalized to the "entry level" racer that just started racing in his $7k machine. That is the very problem with Spec Miata that I have. I want every new driver that comes in to be competitive from race 1. I never said I will have to tell anything to the drivers. I don't care about them. They can race whatever they want. I would care about new drivers only, and whoever wants to join. One could create a new class called True Spec Miata maybe even outside of SCCA and NASA. It would be super successful.

Supervising would be much simpler, as there would be less things to check than there is now. This very thread is the ultimate proof supervising now is very simple.

Btw, I got my price right where it would be at $16k. Donor $4000, Spec Miata In The Box $5495, Sealed Engine: $5000.
Look, if this was Super Touring where you're installing $15k brake kit I would not care, but doing this to an entry level car/class like that makes me wonder.

Anyway, I'll give up. Sorry, for changing the thread.

[Ron Alan]

I want every new driver that comes in to be competitive from race 1.

Post like this just make me scratch my arss...but thanks, it felt good!

Hypothetical for you...lets say every car is equal and we take that out of the equation. What do we do with the guys who can afford to pay for top level coaching? Will this be fair to those who have to learn on their own?

In nature, there is only one King of the jungle...everyone else is trying to take his place!