189 replies to this topic

[Danny Steyn]

Hi all - this is a subject for open discussion that is sure to get everyone all worked up. I do not have any agenda with this, as I am very happy with the status quo, but there was a lot of chatter this past weekend. And this is not something that will be thrashed out prior to the runoffs, as I suspect that this debate will continue well into the off season.

 

In Spec Miata we have all seen team racing played out well by many teams. In the early days, the Pombo’s were the kings, qualifying and racing at Road Atlanta with a sheet of paper between their bumpers.

 

In recent years have seen the East Street team of Jim, Craig and Pat doing an amazing job of qualifying and racing at Road America. I even tried it with Tom Fowler there a few years back although we really sucked at it.  And lest anyone think this is an easy task, those that do it well make it look easy, but it takes at least two highly talented drivers to pull it off.

 

And this past weekend we saw the utter dominance of the SAC team of Matt and Elivan at the Glen in Race 1. They showed it at another level. Two highly skilled teammates totally committed to each other every straight of every lap to the end of the race are pretty tough to beat. 

 

This team racing is very different to the type of racing that most do, forming temporary dancing partner relationships of convenience on the track where drivers are only committed to each other while it works for both drivers.

 

As a class we mostly all like the bump drafting aspect of this class, and at VIR when they asked us who liked bump drafting, the group was overwhelmingly in favor, and I was the first one to put up my hand. So here we are as drivers, we have openly communicated to the SCCA officials that we love bump drafting, and SCCA (Majors at least) has pretty much approved it the way we are doing it. And make no mistake, personally I absolutely love this aspect of our racing.

 

And there is a huge difference in speed between bump-drafting/pushing vs. just drafting.

 

But here is the dilemma, and this is not directed at anyone or any team, as I am as guilty or innocent as the others, this is just to start the dialogue in an open transparent fashion………. 

• Is the future of Spec Miata racing, team racing?
• What does this do to the class? Will it cause drivers to leave in frustration, prevent newbies from joining due to the additional expense? Or will it draw new drivers to the class that like this aspect of racing?
• Where does this end? Do we all need to consider funding a “kept” driver to push us to the win? (If so, welcome the $100k + Spec Miata Season)
• What is to stop the pushing car from being a bit too strong in the power department? If it get’s DQ’d is there anything in the GCR that provides penalties to the car that’s being pushed?
• Should we consider a third driver as a spoiler? Or should we have the 2nd driver enter the pits during the race, and rejoin the race later to play with the leaders? (as seen in GrandAm recently)
• Should we outlaw bump drafting altogether? Or is this even possible in our class?
• Should we embrace the Playboy MX-5 Cup approach which prohibits team members from qualifying together, and makes bump drafting an offense in qualifying (even between non team members) but sort of turns a blind eye to it in the race (Lamb, Buras and a few others that have run this class may be able to shed more light on this approach and what they think of it.)
• And I am sure there are many more opinions and ideas that will be aired here

I feel this is something that needs open and honest discussion for the future of our class.

[Bench Racer]

IMHJ, during brainstorming comments/thoughts/ideas should freely flow, please lets not trash someones ideas at the get-go.

 

There are SCCA rules that should be implemented during every race.
 

SCCA GCR

 

6.11. RULES OF THE ROAD

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct

A. Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track.

 

B. Each competitor has a right to racing room, which is generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface that under racing conditions, a driver can maintain control of his car in close quarters.

C. Drivers must respect the right of other competitors to racing room. Abrupt changes in direction that impede or affect the path of another car attempting to overtake or pass may be interpreted as an effort to deprive a fellow competitor of the right to racing room.

D. The overtaking driver is responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish it safely. The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized, as specified in Section 7.

[James York]

Danny,

 

Been there too.  I don't know anyway to change this tactic that I can think.

 

In qualifying, I haven't really had it be an issue so far since I typically can find some other "loner" on grid while we are staring at the East Street gang up front   .  Or I sometimes slip in with "teams" since we are all friendly types.

 

In races, I was once on the recieving end of a tag-team.  I could get by one, but never both as they would work together to push me back or hinder me moving past.  Extremely frustrating, but I just figured it as "that's the way it goes" type deals.  Most races, I have found it possible to work with another like myself that allows us to temporarily team up to even things up a bit.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Team driving is here to stay...  very few will ever do it as egos dont often allow it,

 

you have to have the mindset that a victory for your team mate is in fact a victory for yourself! 

 

IMO that is why East Street works so well, Jim in genuinly glad when his freinds and team mates do well!  and after being around Berry and Sandlin they think like that as well...

[DrDomm]

Danny, if you need a teammate, teach me how to drive and have Tom prepare my car.  I promise I won't pass you.

[Mike Collins]

The "Future"????  

 

Team driving in SM goes back to the very first days of SM.  Chip Herr and Jim Daniels in matched cars with Sunbelt motors at the very first ARRC....Jim pulls over Chip wins.....

 

Bret dePedro and Ken Zalner in the MARRSeries.  Then Kenny and Scott Brunk, Then Kenny and his brother Brian....  Mike Collins and Bad Al Bell....

 

As previously mentioned the Pombo's...Raised the bar to entirely new level.

 

There is NOTHING new about team driving in SM, some have marching orders, some don't...

[Caveman-kwebb99]

team mate racing goes far beyond on track activity as well...

 

Data and Vid sharing, track notes, tire notes, $$$ for R&D, encouraging each other, constant dialog about all fassits of the racing.

 

While it has never worked out for me on track, I have a few people I consider team mates in all those other areas, and it makes a huge difference

[Muda]

Nothing in the rules against a team effort that I could ever find.  That said, the concept of someone paying for another driver and/or car to help his effort in a race or qualifier runs afoul of the spirit of the class and club racing in general, IMHO.

 

Had an experience last year at NJMP with a verrrrry faaaaassst car that was DQ'd from the race after it pushed another car to a track record.  As my time was less than 1/10th slower, I asked the Chief Stewart about the legality of the track record and was told that it was legal, nothing in the GCR to question it and the record stands.

 

Looking forward to some teamwork/proximity practice at WGI next week.

[Craig Berry]

Danny, great topic and thanks for the team compliment. Kyle hit upon some great points, Unselfishness and complete honesty with info and data sharing.
IMO racing would not be near as fun alone....I really enjoy having a team of guys that I am friends with and talk to every day, even when not at the track.
I do not know what others think Team Driving consists of, but besides the points Kyle mentioned, for us its simple....The individual comes first, the team second. Its way more dificult to impliment the plan, than it is to talk about it, and hardly ever really works. Besides the obvious of having 2 drivers and cars matched up with talent and speed, the real key is communication. You must have 2 guys who can communicate openly and honestly. For example, we have had many occasions where one guy is truly faster than another, this cant be a draft or out braking, but just plain faster....one guy must trust the data comming from the faster guy.
As Danny proved with his Pole at the Sprints, team mates do not have to be on the same team. A really smart fast driver can create his own team mate on the track. The on track stuff is hit or miss, and a lot of luck. The off track communication and data sharing is 100%, and thats the real advantage.

[Danny Steyn]

The "Future"????  

 

 Chip Herr and Jim Daniels in matched cars with Sunbelt motors at the very first ARRC....Jim pulls over Chip wins.....

 

Bret dePedro and Ken Zalner in the MARRSeries.  Then Kenny and Scott Brunk, Then Kenny and his brother Brian....  Mike Collins and Bad Al Bell....

 

Mike, I never witnessed these examples, but thanks

[Danny Steyn]

Craig, thanks for the tow at the Sprints, and as you know I jumped right back in and pushed to see if we could go faster.

[Danny Steyn]

Hopefully some of other questions will be addressed as well. 

[Blake Thompson]

I got brake-checked by my "team mate" this week and we sleep together.  Team work is hard.  Egos are steep.

[Jim Drago]

Hi all - this is a subject for open discussion that is sure to get everyone all worked up. I do not have any agenda with this, as I am very happy with the status quo, but there was a lot of chatter this past weekend. And this is not something that will be thrashed out prior to the runoffs, as I suspect that this debate will continue well into the off season.
 
In Spec Miata we have all seen team racing played out well by many teams. In the early days, the Pombo’s were the kings, qualifying and racing at Road Atlanta with a sheet of paper between their bumpers.
 
In recent years have seen the East Street team of Jim, Craig and Pat doing an amazing job of qualifying and racing at Road America. I even tried it with Tom Fowler there a few years back although we really sucked at it.  And lest anyone think this is an easy task, those that do it well make it look easy, but it takes at least two highly talented drivers to pull it off.
 
And this past weekend we saw the utter dominance of the SAC team of Matt and Elivan at the Glen in Race 1. They showed it at another level. Two highly skilled teammates totally committed to each other every straight of every lap to the end of the race are pretty tough to beat. 
 
This team racing is very different to the type of racing that most do, forming temporary dancing partner relationships of convenience on the track where drivers are only committed to each other while it works for both drivers.
 
As a class we mostly all like the bump drafting aspect of this class, and at VIR when they asked us who liked bump drafting, the group was overwhelmingly in favor, and I was the first one to put up my hand. So here we are as drivers, we have openly communicated to the SCCA officials that we love bump drafting, and SCCA (Majors at least) has pretty much approved it the way we are doing it. And make no mistake, personally I absolutely love this aspect of our racing.
 
And there is a huge difference in speed between bump-drafting/pushing vs. just drafting.
 
But here is the dilemma, and this is not directed at anyone or any team, as I am as guilty or innocent as the others, this is just to start the dialogue in an open transparent fashion……….

• Is the future of Spec Miata racing, team racing?
• What does this do to the class? Will it cause drivers to leave in frustration, prevent newbies from joining due to the additional expense? Or will it draw new drivers to the class that like this aspect of racing?
• Where does this end? Do we all need to consider funding a “kept” driver to push us to the win? (If so, welcome the $100k + Spec Miata Season)
• What is to stop the pushing car from being a bit too strong in the power department? If it get’s DQ’d is there anything in the GCR that provides penalties to the car that’s being pushed?
• Should we consider a third driver as a spoiler? Or should we have the 2nd driver enter the pits during the race, and rejoin the race later to play with the leaders? (as seen in GrandAm recently)
• Should we outlaw bump drafting altogether? Or is this even possible in our class?
• Should we embrace the Playboy MX-5 Cup approach which prohibits team members from qualifying together, and makes bump drafting an offense in qualifying (even between non team members) but sort of turns a blind eye to it in the race (Lamb, Buras and a few others that have run this class may be able to shed more light on this approach and what they think of it.)
• And I am sure there are many more opinions and ideas that will be aired here

I feel this is something that needs open and honest discussion for the future of our class.

 
 
In recent years have seen the East Street team of Jim, Craig and Pat doing an amazing job of qualifying and racing at Road America. I even tried it with Tom Fowler there a few years back although we really sucked at it.  And lest anyone think this is an easy task, those that do it well make it look easy, but it takes at least two highly talented drivers to pull it off.
 
Wow, a compliment! I am saving this one

 

 

 

• Is the future of Spec Miata racing, team racing

Team racing has been around a long time. Before all of us even started in SM.  I have team mates that I travel with, team mates that I meet at the track. I raced you ( Danny) no differently at Atlanta than had it been Craig ahead of me. I stayed behind, made it clear I was going to push, didn't pass at several opportunities. With a few to go, we started racing. 

 

 

 

• What does this do to the class? Will it cause drivers to leave in frustration, prevent newbies from joining due to the additional expense? Or will it draw new drivers to the class that like this aspect of racing?

I certainly hope not. There is no increase or additional expense. What you suggest will certainly not become the norm, nor will it ever become popular other than perhaps a few very well funded individuals.  If that is what they chose to do, we can't stop them.  

 

 

• Where does this end? Do we all need to consider funding a “kept” driver to push us to the win? (If so, welcome the $100k + Spec Miata Season)

You mention this like it drastically increases your chances. It doesn't . Even with the best two cars and drivers, many stars still have to align to make this work.  I liken it more to buying 5 lottery tickets as opposed to one.  Sure it helps, but you need 20 other pieces to fall in place and seems really silly to "pay" for someone to do nothing but push you around to win an amateur title or race? IMO, pretty sad and few if ANY would respect that championship, I know I wouldn't. 

 

 

• What is to stop the pushing car from being a bit too strong in the power department? If it get’s DQ’d is there anything in the GCR that provides penalties to the car that’s being pushed?

This is one of the only real concerns I see here. I have to admit, I have been pondering what to do here as I feel fairly certain that this WILL be a very real scenario at this years Runoffs.  This same scenario has been rumored to have happened before in the Pro series, at this same track. So don't dismiss this, it is a VERY real possibility and problem. If I had no regard for this class, what stops me from pushing Berry 20 seconds out on the field and then losing a trans with two to go? "dam, it would have been a great race, too bad my trans failed" Watch out for this one friends. 

 

 

 

• Should we consider a third driver as a spoiler? Or should we have the 2nd driver enter the pits during the race, and rejoin the race later to play with the leaders? (as seen in GrandAm recently)

Again, Amateur racing.  If someone wants to do this, they will be blasted to no end by the SM community and the wins/results will be completely disrespected and the person/persons will be ostracized from the SM community.  

 

 

• Should we outlaw bump drafting altogether? Or is this even possible in our class?

You can't have it both ways... The only way to do away with ALL of your concerns if black flag any/all that are even thought to be touching, PERIOD.  We will have lots of pissed people, but that is the ONLY way to eliminate it. Personally, I don't care, we will adapt to the rules as most will. 

 

 

• Should we embrace the Playboy MX-5 Cup approach which prohibits team members from qualifying together, and makes bump drafting an offense in qualifying (even between non team members) but sort of turns a blind eye to it in the race (Lamb, Buras and a few others that have run this class may be able to shed more light on this approach and what they think of it.)

 

Sure, but all of our cars are painted the same..  I have several cars,friends, drivers not under my tent that I could team with in qualifying? As do most of us.  It would not work. Only way is 10 ft away from any car rule.   Lets say we change.. Craig and I would master this system weekend one as would you.. Car one break the air, car two start 150 ft  behind, pulling air all the way around, never touching. Then swap the order, laps done. ( Kind of like the Sprints pole this year, without the second part )   

 

 

While I understand this post was not directed at us, obviously we resemble some of these remarks

 

First our team master strategy...

  Do not take your team mate out

  Worry about yourself first, team second

  Cut the number of people you are racing down from 50-12-6-3 none.. 

  Do whatever you can do to help your race, if staying in line is the best move, that is what you should do. 

  There are no team orders other than we seldom race each other until it matters

 

 

BTW.. Wait until you see the six car ESR/SAC conga line at this years Runoffs

[Jamz14]

I have been very vocal on my opinion of team tactics during qualifying. I have been given excuses as to why it cant and shouldnt be controlled. None of which I agree with. During a race............ do what you wish. A good driver probably can mitigate most team tactics in a race.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Your opinion dont count

[Chris70]

BTW.. Wait until you see the six car ESR/SAC conga line at this years Runoffs

That is going to punch a heck of a hole in the air, that is for sure.
Ademir

[Jamz14]

I know it doesn't. No street cred yet.

[pat slattery]

Danny, I personally don't care for it, but, if we had a few 1.6 cars to team up with I might change my mind.   I don't believe you can do anything about it during a race, but I certainly think you can and should put an end to it for qualifying.  It would be very easy to stop if SCCA had the courage to do it.

 

Pat

[Jim Drago]

Danny, I personally don't care for it, but, if we had a few 1.6 cars to team up with I might change my mind.   I don't believe you can do anything about it during a race, but I certainly think you can and should put an end to it for qualifying.  It would be very easy to stop if SCCA had the courage to do it.

 

Pat

 

Convenient to blame the SCCA and courage...  We are a club, we can only blame ourselves. 

 

99% have been crying for bump drafting and " SCCA should have  the courage to legalize that"

 

Has ANYONE complained or asked for a change here? Or is it like everything else, we just complain and blame the SCCA.