189 replies to this topic

[pat slattery]

I still like our WKA rule, which during qualifying you do not attempt to make a pass and continue to push, you lose your best qualifying time. do it twice, you lose your 2nd and so forth.

[Sebastian Landy]

I like what we do in MARRS. Let the Meathead guys all go out and punch a 4 car hole in the air, and just slip in behind and use their draft. Seems to work better than my brother and I trying to push each other, which NEVER ends well…

[Jim Drago]

and implement a device similar to a crash shut off (or similar device) to the front and rear of each car.

You stumped me, this has to be a joke right?  

[Jamz14]

Bench,

 

I have made my feelings known about BDing during qualifying. I am indifferent to BDing during a race and basically feel the same as Jim, the guys winning will still be winning regardless and we will have fun either way.

 

However, if a decision is made to stop BDing during a race, I really dislike the idea of additional equipment required just to ensure that every instance of it was being handled fairly. It doesn't have to do with cost, though I think any additional costs impact budget racers; it doesn't have to do with safety problems of a cutout switch being activated in a race, though I think it very unsafe. I just think that it is unnecessary to achieve the desired results. There is no fail safe procedure to enforce most of the rules governing the sport and we seem to manage just fine. Are the stewards perfect? No. But the major offenses I believe they catch. It just seems like an over engineered solution to a minor problem. And as you know, smart devious guys figure out ways to exploit all the rules.  I could see placing a ringer in the race just to have them brake check a competitor and causing someones engine to cutout. Could they be called for brake checking? Perhaps, but damage done and the guy the ringer had been working for is gone. And in this circumstance, a system to ensure fairness was used in such a way to cause the exact opposite of the intended result.

 

If I had my way, leave the rules alone for the race and allow BDing as it is being done today. If as the lead car I do not like how you did it, file a contact report. But for qualifying, give a rolled black flag to any teams that appear to be working together to improve times. And if us babies can't deal with that, send guys out 15 seconds apart from a random draw and give them 4 laps to set a time. The only downside to that idea that I see is that it reduces the amount of track time that noobs get to perfect their craft. We use qualifying as any other session  to improve our car setup and driver skill and I would hate that just because we couldn't act like adults that it would be limited to just a few laps.  I am envious of the guys that can preserve their gear and tires by going out a setting a hot lap right out of the box. Someday we will be able to as well and at that time, regardless of the rules, we will limit a qual session to an out lap, a hot lap and an in lap. Saves tires!!!!!! But right now, track time is more important to us than tire preservation.

 

Just my opinion.

[Tyler Kicera]

Pardon my lack of Majors experience but here is what I took away from the Glen.  

 

Saturday's race at the glen was won by a huge margin with team mates pushing each other.  Sunday's race saw Matt and Elivan get split up on the start.  For those of us running in the top 5, we saw Elivan drive away by himself and once Matt made his way back to second he did the same.  I love bump drafting and IMO neither of the races this weekend were won strictly by team drafting, they were won by a talented driver in good equipment.  Granted, when you have these two attributes yourself, having an equal team mate pushing you does give the two of you an edge(Saturday's huge margin of victory+everyone behind fighting like cats and dogs).  That being said, it doesn't mean that drafting alone will bring you home wins.

 

Danny put it well.  With one car, I show up each weekend not knowing who I'm going to push or who will push me.  In the end I usually find someone and we work together as long as it helps both of us.  I had a blast this weekend and I don't feel like I lost to Matt and Elivan because of it.  

[pat slattery]

I have no problem with bumpdrafting during a race, only for qualifying

[Waterboy]

I have no problem with bumpdrafting during a race, only for qualifying

I'm confused, is it during qualifying or the race that you have an issue with bump drafting? Heard some guy talking about wka qualifying, maybe we could implement that.

[Todd Green]

I don't believe any other major form of racing has team qualifying.  

If you mean officially sanctioned, then probably not, but it isn't official in SM either.  But teams certainly do work together to qualify.  Just look at Ferrari in F1.  Or this vid talking about it in WTCC:

 

 

Google "qualify slipstream" for other examples.  I don't personally have a problem with it either in qualifying or racing.  Rarely use it (i.e., can't remember ever having done it and certainly not with a team mate since I don't have one. )  I think it is very beneficial in racing to cut down on the number of low percentage passes being attempted.  Well at least until the last few laps.

[Bench Racer]

You stumped me, this has to be a joke right?  

The general consensus I read within this thread with respect to stoping bump drafting is no rule can stop bump drafting, to which I say.  Pretend for a moment you wanted to eliminate bump drafting. What process would you propose. Everyone knows your not  a box of rocks. I don't have issues with drafting. Please note I didn't say anyone different would win. 

 

 

Jamz14, with in the SCCA there is a written rule 6.11.1.A. please read the rule. You can talk all day about officials or driver protests, nothings ever going to change or happen. It takes a large pair for either to do anything and to date nothing occures. The rule with a crash shut off front and rear dosen't require anyone have a large pair. If you believe bump drafting should stop during qualifying, improve the rule suggested instead of burrying your head in the sand. If we had a crash shut off (or similar device) front and rear how many times do you think your brake checker would get away with his crap before he received some suggestions from those he checked.  

 

The officials within the SCCA would rather close their eyes or allow bump drafting ignoring rule 6.11.1.A.

 

GCR Rule 6.11.1.A.

 

"Drivers are responsible to avoid physical contats between cars on the race track."

 

The key word in the rule is are. By GCR rule 1.2.3 Interperting and applying the GCR the word are (are responsible to avoid contact) is "mandatory". No contact, touchy, no bump drafting.    

[Jim Drago]

The general consensus I read within this thread with respect to stoping bump drafting is no rule can stop bump drafting, to which I say.  Pretend for a moment you wanted to eliminate bump drafting. What process would you propose. Everyone knows your not  a box of rocks. I don't have issues with drafting. Please note I didn't say anyone different would win. 

 

 

I am going to ignore the 25 plus reasons why your bump switch is a silly idea as I think we can agree that would never happen. 

 

No rule will stop anything. The rule is not the problem, the enforcement is the issue. 

 

If we want to STOP bump drafting it is VERY easy! If you see two cars bump drafting or even suspect that they are bump drafting, black flag them. You need to do it EVERY time. Qualifying, during Races and even in the Runoffs.  If a driver protests drivers for bump drafting and has video of it, both cars are dq'ed, no questions asked. Once the drivers realize the Rule has teeth and this is the level of enforcement, it will stop. It will stop fast.  The problem is the drivers don't want this, certainly not a consensus. But if that is how the rule was enforced, bump drafting would go away and go away quickly. We would all adapt to it rather easily. 

 

Perhaps some one who cares should start a poll about completely eliminating bump drafting in SM. None of this it is Ok in the race and not qualifying. It is an all or nothing, either we enforce the rule or we don't. That is how we ended up in the gray area some feel we are in now.

[JBlaisdell]

Tour de France (or any bicycle race). BTW...It's going on right now...anybody watching?

 

TT (time trail): Man against the clock...No drafting (SM qualifying)

Criterium ( cyclings version of NASCAR): Man against man...It's ALL about drafting (SM Sprint races)

 

It is a continued fascination, that we, as a bunch of grown men, driving girly cars, spending stupid $$$ and time...always trying to reinvent the wheel!

[pat slattery]

I'm confused, is it during qualifying or the race that you have an issue with bump drafting? Heard some guy talking about wka qualifying, maybe we could implement that.

No problem with bump drafting in the race, that's part of racing.  It's team qualifying that is my issue.  WKA put an end to it with there rule set.

 

pat

[Jim Drago]

No problem with bump drafting in the race, that's part of racing.  It's team qualifying that is my issue.  WKA put an end to it with there rule set.
 
pat

Can you please explain this? If it isn't fair or legal in qualifying, why is the race different? If you feel it gains you an advantage in qualifying, it surely gains you an advantage in the race? I care far more about the race results than qualifying?

[Jamz14]

Bench,

 

I think you are wrong on the general consensus. It isn't that the consensus is that you can't stop it, it appears the consensus is that drivers don't want to stop it!!! Big difference. I also see a contradiction in your statement. You say that nothing is ever going to change, that it would take large balls to protest or affect change. But in the next breath you ask for a rule change to be implemented to force us to mount a cutoff switch that I doubt anyone wants. The ball size needed to enforce the current rule set as Jim described would be pea sized compared to the beach ball size nuts needed to have a rule adopted that no one wants.

 

As far as how many races do I think it will take to punish the hypothetical brake checker; I think that is a better question for you. If it is 1 or over than I say the damage is done. All it takes is one time for someone to ruin someone elses runoff. And this isn't even addressing all the cars stalled on the track for non intentional racing incident contact. I'll tell you what, you want to see people pulling their head out of the sand and rising up in protest? Implement the cutoff switch idea and after one heavily attended track event you will see a revolt.

 

About me burying my head in the sand; Bench, I will take up an argument and, as some here could attest to, champion it against my best interest till the bitter end.  But more than just argue, I pride myself on action. To my folly I have written letters to have rules looked at. I have embarrassed myself multiple times at the request of guys that have much more experience and background for making cases than I do. Again I point out that you even say that certain things are impossible and then you go on to chastise people for burying their heads. It is not burying your head to take up a fools errand. It is just foolish. The point of having gigantic balls isn't to have an easier target for people to kick them.

 

So i said that I pride myself on action. Ok let me live up to that. Here is my offer. You stand up at the next drivers meeting and remind everyone of the GCR you pointed out and that you will protest anyone in violation of that rule. I will raise my hand and announce that I will support you in that and protest any contact as well. You write a letter outlining new wording to the GCR that gives a better way of enforcing it and I will cosign it with you. As long as it doesn't include an unsafe cutoff switch that was meant for crashes not contact. You do this and I will support you because in technicality, you are correct about the no contact rule. I said before that we will drive under any rules that the group adopts and I live by my words. It is my opinion that qual should not contain BDing and team tactics. It is my choice to be ok with my opinion not being the groups choice. Can you live with your opinion not being adopted by the group? This is not burying your head my friend. It is called democracy

[Jamz14]

Jim,

 

I can explain the difference. Qualifying isn't a race. You can "win" qualifying without being at the front of the field. You can "win" qualifying while driving fewer laps than everyone else. Qualifying is fundamentally different than a race.

 

Second; A race finds competitive competitors running nose to tail for multiple laps. These guys aren't necessarily trying to BD. They are just running tightly. It is impossible for a steward to tell the difference between racing and teamwork, from racing and BDing. On the other hand, it is very easy to tell when someone is BDing in qualifying or using team tactics.

 

Third; You can affect a rule in qualifying to eliminate it without destroying the fundamental nature of qualifying. You cannot do so for a race.

[pat slattery]

Jim,

 

I can explain the difference. Qualifying isn't a race. You can "win" qualifying without being at the front of the field. You can "win" qualifying while driving fewer laps than everyone else. Qualifying is fundamentally different than a race.

 

Second; A race finds competitive competitors running nose to tail for multiple laps. These guys aren't necessarily trying to BD. They are just running tightly. It is impossible for a steward to tell the difference between racing and teamwork, from racing and BDing. On the other hand, it is very easy to tell when someone is BDing in qualifying or using team tactics.

 

Third; You can affect a rule in qualifying to eliminate it without destroying the fundamental nature of qualifying. You cannot do so for a race.

 

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better.

 

Also in a race, they don't wait to get in the back and line up

[LarryKing]

Mr. Drago speaks the truth. Enforcement is everything. DQ for any contact and I guarantee it will cease.

 

Of course, you would need the concensus of the majority. (I know - right?)

 

On a similar note, are there any other SCCA/NASA classes that commonly bumpdraft? And does NASA permit bumpdrafting?

[Jim Drago]

I am going to respectfully disagree.

Watch some videos of front runners and please tell me if you don't see CLEAR intent to bump draft for an ADVANTAGE in the race. Many push cars passed their competitors. Often the second place car tries to push the leader away from the field to cut down on the number of cars in the race. That is 100% intentional. Smart racing IMO

If we feel BD gains an unfair advantage in qualifying( I concede the point), it certainly does in the race as well. That is clear and demonstrated by the fact that we are all doing it. If it was not too our advantage, we wouldn't. It either gains and advantage in both situations and you feel strongly enough to do away entirely, or it doesn't. Perhaps I'm too black and white, but I really see no middle ground.

It seems like a lot of single car guys are adopting this position? Perhaps they feel they will have a partner of necessity in the race and "more" fair to them in a race than qualifying? I don't know. Whether it be two non team mates pushing away from the field ( Danny and I at Atlanta Majors) or two teamates pushing away from the field (Ferris/Goulart). All four of us knew exactly what we were doing and why we were doing it. To GAIN an Advantage. I have been on the down side of that as well( many times). So IMO, we recognize it is an advantage in both scenarios as we all know it can be. If that is the case, we either leave it alone, or we do away with it completely. I can't see how picking and choosing works.

[Jim Drago]

And does NASA permit bumpdrafting?

Yes, spelled out "legal"

[Rob Burgoon]

At present people are pushing in races for advantage.  It isn't practical to ban pushing or drafting during a race since it looks too similar to following and trying to pass to the officials.

 

In qualifying with a ban on drafting it is possible to land the pole without coming within 30 feet of another car.

 

 

Jim, I think you're being obtuse on purpose.  Please stop that.