30 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Guys, I did a lot of copying and pasting. I was unable to change the order, so start from the bottom. I had to delete a lot of the smiley's etc as there were way too many and it would not allow me to post. So if you think there should have been a smiley, there probably was one.
Thanks again guys
Jim



Today, 09:03 PM Todd Green Jim did you look to see if you could access the logs from the control panel?
Today, 09:03 PM steveracer steveracer has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Kim H Kim H has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Jeff Wasilko Jeff Wasilko has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Rob Hines Rob Hines has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Brian Ghidinelli Brian Ghidinelli has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM DrDomm DrDomm has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Sebastian Landy Sebastian Landy has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM Cnj Cnj has left the room
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Today, 09:03 PM RussMcB RussMcB has left the room
Today, 09:03 PM SpecCanuck SpecCanuck has left the room
Today, 09:02 PM Strongbad Strongbad has left the room
Today, 09:02 PM Kim H Thanks Guys!
Today, 09:02 PM Todd Lamb Todd Lamb has left the room
Today, 09:02 PM Todd Lamb it was fun - good night....sorry don't have the description in a doc, made it up on the fly
Today, 09:02 PM bmw251 bmw251 has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Jim Drago One last thing.. Most mid pack guys BUMP DRAFT way too much!
Today, 09:01 PM Triple-C Racing Triple-C Racing has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Charles Boehly Charles Boehly has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Todd Lamb Todd what is the thing that is in your mind most when going into a corner? What are you concentrating on most? Usually I am focused on race strategy.
Today, 09:01 PM Jim Drago Good night guys!
Today, 09:01 PM Vance J Vance J has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Triple-C Racing Thanks guys!
Today, 09:01 PM Rob Hines Thanks!! This is great information! We need to figure out a way to capture & post next time.
Today, 09:01 PM Doug Roderick Doug Roderick has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Mr.Pink Mr.Pink has left the room
Today, 09:01 PM Vance J Thanks everyone for all the good info.
Today, 09:00 PM Mark McCallister Thanks all...much appreciated!
Today, 09:00 PM ARMRAM ARMRAM has left the room
Today, 09:00 PM Roger Caddell Roger Caddell has left the room
Today, 09:00 PM Todd Green Thanks for everyone's time and knowledge sharing!
Today, 09:00 PM glove Great help! Thank you all very much.
Today, 09:00 PM RussMcB Thanks, everyone. I've picked up some good info.
Today, 09:00 PM Danny Steyn Danny Steyn has left the room
Today, 09:00 PM ARMRAM Thank you all
Today, 09:00 PM FTodaro FTodaro has left the room
Today, 09:00 PM Brian Ghidinelli tnx to everyone - love the chatting. Jim - make the screen bigger, hard to only see like 6 lines at a time.
Today, 09:00 PM DrDomm Yeah, thanks everyone.
Today, 09:00 PM steveracer Very much! Thanks all
Today, 09:00 PM Charles Boehly Awesome session. Thanks to all experts involved!!!!!!!
Today, 09:00 PM DrDomm CNJ...thanks
Today, 09:00 PM FTodaro FTodaro has entered the room
Today, 09:00 PM Jim Drago I want to thank Todd, Mike,Roger and Danny for all the help and information!
Today, 09:00 PM Michael Novak Michael Novak has left the room
Today, 08:59 PM Danny Steyn thanks all - hope this helped in some small way
Today, 08:59 PM Cnj Domm, I found the book "driving on the edge" by Michael Krumm to be very helpful regarding corner entry/braking, etc.
Today, 08:59 PM Jim Drago OK Guys, it has been almost 90 minutes.. Lets wrap it up. We can do this again if you feel it is a successful format. We can stay on as long as you guys like, but I dont want to wear the guys out either.
Today, 08:59 PM DrDomm Danny...I feel that pain sometimes
Today, 08:58 PM Jamz14 Jamz14 has entered the room
Today, 08:58 PM Todd Lamb ^used
Today, 08:58 PM Danny Steyn One of the most common things I see when watching mid pack videos is that I can see in the drivers mindset he is content to be there. You can see that he is content to follow, even if the guy ahead messes up slightly. YOu can sense that he has no intention of taking the real estate away from the guy upfront. The guys up front do NOT want to be behind UNLESS it is part of a strategy. To me so much of racing is the head game
Today, 08:58 PM Todd Lamb What are some tips or suggestions to help people push harder, carry more speed through corners (be braver)? That's a tough one to do, but I focus on making sure the car is settled on entry, as that's usually the first problem to carrying speed in. Then I show the g-force curve on the data and explain the amount of grip being uses versus what is available
Today, 08:58 PM RussMcB I tend to push as much as I'm comfortable, not push myself, even when I know the car could go faster.
Today, 08:58 PM Mike Collins Mike Collins has left the room
Today, 08:58 PM DrDomm Just analyzing things like crazy.
Today, 08:57 PM DrDomm I was wondering because the shape of the turn is different with a later apex...
Today, 08:57 PM Brian Ghidinelli russ: mental imagery is one way
Today, 08:57 PM DrDomm Thats what I was gonna ask
Today, 08:57 PM glove Todd, looks like the thread cuts off after certain number of comments. Do you happen to have the 10-9-8-7 Braking comment/Advanced TrailBraking Explanation that you posted still saved in Word doucment or something that you can re-post real quick?
Today, 08:56 PM DrDomm Thanks mike
Today, 08:56 PM Mike Collins you are only turning in too early if you run out of track before the gas pedal is on the floor
Today, 08:56 PM Todd Lamb usually the issue is not getting to the apex at all
Today, 08:56 PM 38bfast Todd what is the thing that is in your mind most when going into a corner. What are you concentrating on most.
Today, 08:56 PM Jim Drago I found myself early on trying to be super late everywhere... even when it was detrimental
Today, 08:56 PM RussMcB Todd, what are some tips or suggestions to help people push harder, carry more speed through corners (be braver)?
Today, 08:56 PM Todd Lamb In my coaching no I have not seen apex as an issue, but we focus on the line quite a bit from the start
Today, 08:56 PM DrDomm oh, I'm not late apexing
Today, 08:56 PM DrDomm Um, sometimes I wonder if I'm turning in early
Today, 08:55 PM Charles Boehly DS. Yes, my bad.
Today, 08:55 PM Jim Drago Domm, Eric Foss once told me late Apex is the hardest thing to break amatuer drivers from
Today, 08:55 PM DrDomm right
Today, 08:55 PM Todd Lamb Sorry missed it.....the apex is relative to the corner
Today, 08:55 PM Mike Collins Depends on how narrow the exit is
Today, 08:55 PM DrDomm Is that an area of mid packer problem?
Today, 08:55 PM DrDomm Todd, I asked before how important is late apex.
Today, 08:55 PM Danny Steyn @Charles - no the other way round. The warmer the air, the more humid the air, the less O2 content in the air and for that given FP, the car will run richer so you need to reduce FP
Today, 08:54 PM bmw251 bmw251 has entered the room
Today, 08:54 PM Todd Lamb Anymore driving related questions?
Today, 08:53 PM chris haldeman chris haldeman has entered the room
Today, 08:53 PM 38bfast We are going to have to put the cats back on our cars when we go out to cal
Today, 08:53 PM Jim Drago I dont see much in either
Today, 08:53 PM Danny Steyn watching David Delgenio tune Steve Gorriarans cars at the Runoffs taught me the importance of aedjusting for changes in ambient conditions. He does 100% of his tuning NOT based on AF but based on EGT
Today, 08:53 PM Charles Boehly so more fuel pressure when warmer ambient temps for the cooling effect on the engine?
Today, 08:52 PM Rob Hines Has anyone had luck running 89 or 91 for more power under certain conditions?
Today, 08:52 PM Michael Novak spec fuel for the runoffs I assume in CA
Today, 08:51 PM Brian Ghidinelli btw, you can only get environmentally friendly 91 in california for you runoffs regulars
Today, 08:51 PM Brian Ghidinelli danny - tnx
Today, 08:51 PM Mike Collins MARRS has a few guys that run gas every now and again...we know who they are though..
Today, 08:51 PM DrDomm Closest station to hotel
Today, 08:51 PM Danny Steyn @Brian - we knew the weather was changing - there was a 10 min warm up session in the am - we added 2PSI, realized we were too lean and added 2PSI more for the race - we also knew the weather would warm up a bit so there is some anticipating going on
Today, 08:50 PM Michael Novak 93 Sunoco or BP
Today, 08:50 PM Jim Drago Not sure up in MARRS area
Today, 08:50 PM Mike Collins 93 from sheetz
Today, 08:50 PM Jim Drago I personally haven't smelled any funny fuel in awhile
Today, 08:50 PM Cnj Cnj has entered the room
Today, 08:50 PM Jim Drago Rob I am "hoping" pump premium
Today, 08:50 PM 38bfast If your sight is not scanning and you are looking far ahead you will cram the guy in front of you
Today, 08:50 PM Cnj Cnj has left the room
Today, 08:49 PM Rob Hines Other than at the runoffs or other races where there is a spec fuel, what fuel are people running in their cars?
Today, 08:49 PM Brian Ghidinelli danny - how did you know for that humidity/weather conditions that 4psi was right? did you dyno at the track? or you just happen to have dyno'd at that humidity/etc before?
Today, 08:49 PM Danny Steyn YUP 38bfast - EVERY weather data point should be noted in EVERY session note
Today, 08:48 PM Todd Lamb When at the apex? keep looking two points ahead, keep eyes moving, keep scanning
Today, 08:48 PM 38bfast Weather goes back to keeping good notes
Today, 08:48 PM Brian Ghidinelli glove: check this article on vettel v. webber if you want some ideas on how far ahead you can look: http://peterwindsor....eb-is-so-quick/
Today, 08:48 PM Todd Lamb At turn-in? Looking for exit, with eye on apex
Today, 08:47 PM Danny Steyn @Steveracer - we have a weather station in the trailer - best $60 bucks you will spend!
Today, 08:47 PM Todd Lamb When starting to brake? Looking at Apex, your eyes will pick up the entry point
Today, 08:47 PM ner88 ner88 has left the room
Today, 08:47 PM Todd Lamb When coming down the straight and into the upcoming turn? Look for entry with an eye on the apex/exit area
Today, 08:46 PM DrDomm What Todd?
Today, 08:46 PM Todd Lamb How far ahead should you be looking? Generally speaking, scan from close to far away constantly
Today, 08:46 PM DrDomm Jim, not sure...arent the short springs in the rear?
Today, 08:45 PM Danny Steyn Every driver has his preference in what he likes for his fuel trace. for 99% of all the tracks we race we live in the 5900RPM range to 6900RPM range, so we tune our FP to get our desired AF ratio - We like to see 13.0 at 5900 and it falls down to 12.0 at 6900. At Road Atlanta for the ARRC there was a wild swing in ambient conditions and we had to add 4PSI for the main race from the Friday sessions
Today, 08:45 PM DrDomm By end of race...snappy loose
Today, 08:45 PM Jim Drago Domm are front perches hard to raise?
Today, 08:45 PM Todd Lamb the famous words of Kyle Webb, Domm
Today, 08:45 PM DrDomm I'll check but would be shocked
Today, 08:45 PM DrDomm Oh, I doubt that.
Today, 08:45 PM glove Looking Ahead. I know it is important to look down the track/to look ahead. How far ahead should you be looking? When coming down the straight and into the upcoming turn? When starting to brake? At turn-in? When at the apex? When tracking out, already to the next turn?
Today, 08:45 PM Jim Drago yes
Today, 08:45 PM DrDomm Do you mean the fronts on rear?
Today, 08:45 PM Jim Drago is car snappy loose always Domm?
Today, 08:44 PM Todd Lamb in a high HP car that's a setup problem 38
Today, 08:44 PM DrDomm Thanks Jim
Today, 08:44 PM 38bfast If you hesitate to go to WOT the car will come around. You need to get power to the back end to make it stick. Weight transfer
Today, 08:44 PM DrDomm Could early turn in give my symptoms?
Today, 08:44 PM Jim Drago I would check.. I have had 2-3 cars come in with them backwards
Today, 08:44 PM DrDomm Never checked spring orientation. I lube the bars pretty frequently
Today, 08:43 PM Todd Lamb 38 not quite the way it works high HP to low HP
Today, 08:43 PM Jim Drago Domm, have you ever checked the orientation of your spprings? Your camber numbers and characteristics sound as if they may be backwards or rear bar bound up tight?
Today, 08:43 PM DrDomm I know!
Today, 08:43 PM steveracer Danny, do you use a density gauge, or seat of the pants?
Today, 08:43 PM FTodaro FTodaro has left the room
Today, 08:42 PM Charles Boehly More or less fuel pressure when humid, warm etc.
Today, 08:42 PM Danny Steyn Domm -something is not right. On new tires that car should be GLUED to the track
Today, 08:42 PM DrDomm Rub it in Danny
Today, 08:42 PM 38bfast The sooner you can get to WOT the faster you will be in any car. So you work with setup to make it stick on corner out.
Today, 08:42 PM Jim Drago fresh gas too
Today, 08:42 PM DrDomm I'm hesitant to get on throttle
Today, 08:42 PM Danny Steyn Charles - hate to say this but we dyno tune all our cars before every race, and then at the track we are making adjustments to FP based on air temp, humidity
Today, 08:42 PM Jim Drago Charles start at 15 degrees on timing, 50-52 psi on fuel pressure, you will be 95% of the way there
Today, 08:42 PM DrDomm For me on new tires, car has more oversteer
Today, 08:42 PM RussMcB A note for towards the end of this chat: (I think) If you Select All and Copy, you can paste the entire chat into something like Word. Someone unable to attend tonight might appreciate that.
Today, 08:41 PM ner88 ner88 has entered the room
Today, 08:41 PM DrDomm 39-40
Today, 08:41 PM DrDomm Not compensating
Today, 08:40 PM 38bfast Danny I drive my DSR the same way I drive a SM. You set it up to make it work
Today, 08:40 PM Jim Drago Domm tire pressures? First session tires usually grow more than other sessions, are you compensating? Hot pressures?
Today, 08:40 PM Todd Lamb agreed Danny
Today, 08:40 PM Brian Ghidinelli tnx... will work on that at the 25hr test day.
Today, 08:39 PM Danny Steyn You can drive an SM the way you drive a high HP car, but you will be real slow!
Today, 08:39 PM Danny Steyn You cannot drive a high HP car the way you drive SM.
Today, 08:39 PM Charles Boehly Dyno time. What is a good order/approach for dyno tuning a 99? What is legally adjustable and where should we start first? I know most take the set it and forget it approach where the NA requires a vigilant dyno approach.
Today, 08:39 PM Todd Lamb But in SM, you get the "U" shape, but where the bottom of the "U" is flat-ish
Today, 08:38 PM Sebastian Landy Sebastian Landy has entered the room
Today, 08:38 PM 38bfast The u is trail braking in the v is soon to go WOT
Today, 08:38 PM Todd Lamb Brian, yes it is, and to be clear for everyone watching, that's the toughest lesson I had to learn going from SM into a high HP car - not carrying the corner speed, allowing the car to turn sharply, and then as Danny said being the first to FULL throttle off the corner in the high HP car
Today, 08:38 PM Danny Steyn With the SM6 the very best lap is that outlap and the one thereafter, then its all downhill!
Today, 08:37 PM 38bfast Sm6 and toyo.
Today, 08:37 PM Brian Ghidinelli well that was my thinking - if you can go from braking to heavy accel, aren't you simply losing out on some transitional speed there? assuming "basic" corners without topographical or other issues.
Today, 08:37 PM Danny Steyn Ralph are you running SM6?
Today, 08:36 PM Todd Lamb in SM I generally see the V with drivers who overslow.
Today, 08:36 PM DrDomm All year, I've been slower on new tires...anyone have a thought on why that would be? It must be something I'm doing.
Today, 08:36 PM Danny Steyn Lets be clear about U's vs V's - the longer it takes you to get to WOT the more rounded the U will be. Not a good thing. But there are corners where a sharp V will be better
Today, 08:36 PM Brian Ghidinelli todd - thanks, that's helpful. basically give up a little entry speed to get to WOT sooner? that's a hard skill to learn coming from SM.
Today, 08:35 PM 38bfast A U into a V
Today, 08:35 PM Brian Ghidinelli when wouldn't you want SOME U at the bottom of the transition from braking to throttle?
Today, 08:35 PM Todd Lamb Higher HP = V....lower HP = U
Today, 08:35 PM Charles Boehly examples of each?
Today, 08:35 PM Jim Drago I agree DOMM on Iracing.
Today, 08:35 PM Danny Steyn Some you want V's others U's
Today, 08:34 PM Todd Lamb Brain - U shape generally as it means carrying max speed from entry to exit on a momentum car
Today, 08:34 PM DrDomm iracing
Today, 08:34 PM Danny Steyn @ Brian - depends on teh corner!
Today, 08:34 PM DrDomm I've used it to familiarize tracks...I find it harder than real life...Never messed with setups really
Today, 08:34 PM Danny Steyn WOT WOT WOT WOT -
Today, 08:34 PM Brian Ghidinelli In a slow car like SM (vs. higher-horsepower cars), are you looking for a V or U shape at the bottom of the data curves when going from braking to throttle?
Today, 08:33 PM Roger Caddell glove, I will give my opinion on that one... not as much as you would think. Just that the guys that win do it right and fast all the time.
Today, 08:33 PM Danny Steyn iRacing is EXCELLENT - especially for setup changes. It is really accurate and you will quickly find out what works and what doesn't. The tracks are exceptionally accurate
Today, 08:33 PM Jim Drago to Dannys point, I think many get into SM thinking we are having deep braking competions.. While braking is certainly important.. I will ALWAYS give up a little in braking to be the first to WOT!
Today, 08:33 PM FTodaro mike yes we do when we are going off
Today, 08:33 PM Mike Collins Areed with ralph
Today, 08:33 PM 38bfast I think for us older farts iracing just does not seem to help as much as it does for the young guns
Today, 08:33 PM Mike Collins The mid pack guys dont go as fast as the winner
Today, 08:33 PM FTodaro Danny done right your right. lesson learned at T7 atlanta
Today, 08:32 PM DrDomm Joking
Today, 08:32 PM DrDomm $$$
Today, 08:32 PM glove What are the biggest differences you see in data between front runners and mid/back pack drivers?
Today, 08:32 PM Cnj Cnj has entered the room
Today, 08:32 PM Danny Steyn Greatest help to me when I was starting was Tommy Kendall coaching me at an event. He said to me ....."most drivers think that the driver who gets to the throttle first wins. But this is a mistake.... its the driver that gets to Wide Open Throttle First that wins." Have never let that out of my mind!
Today, 08:31 PM DrDomm iRacing? Useful? Suggestions?
Today, 08:31 PM RussMcB Frank, I like your "two things i do when i go to a new track".
Today, 08:31 PM FTodaro In general not for every corner
Today, 08:30 PM FTodaro then i feel i have got the most out of it
Today, 08:30 PM 38bfast 3.0 is a good target in the rear
Today, 08:30 PM FTodaro There are two things i do when i go to a new track. I keep trying to do everything earlier untill i run out of track. I try to turn in earlier till the track out is getting me off and i try to get to the gas eariler till i run out of track, or a combination of the two.
Today, 08:30 PM Jim Drago DS 2.8- 3.0 typically in rears.. 90% of the time
Today, 08:29 PM DrDomm Thanks Mike...couldn't get 3 when car was new.
Today, 08:29 PM Glenn Davis Glenn Davis has left the room
Today, 08:28 PM Danny Steyn I dont run quite as much rear camber as JD - closer to 2.4 - 2.8 in the rear. Feel I am losing too much rear tire grip in the braking zones
Today, 08:28 PM 38bfast Danny I agree but it helps you get in the ball park
Today, 08:28 PM Mike Collins 3.0 all the way around should be obtainable or something is bent.
Today, 08:28 PM Jim Drago Glove, find a safe corner at a track that you can safely run off... Go faster and faster until you can't make it. That is a good place to start. Just use your head.
Today, 08:28 PM Todd Lamb Keep the car settled on entry, even if you brake lightly, and work on releasing the brake smoothly and letting the car roll into the corner with speed.
Today, 08:28 PM Keith Andrews Keith Andrews has left the room
Today, 08:27 PM DrDomm Still skeptical about how to get that much camber.
Today, 08:27 PM Danny Steyn 38bfast - I have never used tirewear to see what camber I was running. To mee its all about the feel - too much and you will be giving it up in the braking zones and in the left handers
Today, 08:27 PM Todd Lamb Is there a particular way/drill/practice/technique to Braking Deeper into the Corners? And to get Faster Entry Speed? Data will help significantly, including brake pressure traces. It's less about braking deeper and more about carrying the speed into the corner as the first step. Braking deeper comes later when you are comfortable with the entry speed.
Today, 08:27 PM DrDomm Thanks Jim...good info
Today, 08:27 PM Jim Drago and Danny
Today, 08:27 PM Jim Drago what 38bfast said
Today, 08:26 PM Jim Drago If I had to set my car up tomorrow and be forcd to run the entire season as is.. I would run 3.25 fronts, 3.0 rear.. 50.3 % cross 3/32 out in front, 1/16 in on rear.. 4 58 front heights, 4 7/16 rear and rear bar on soft
Today, 08:26 PM Charles Boehly and they get a second lead in the first two laps so DRS doesn't work :-0
Today, 08:26 PM Todd Lamb Answering glove....
Today, 08:25 PM Danny Steyn Hardest thing in this game is the NEVER ending setup changes to experiment and find the compromise. SO many drivers make NO changes all weekend. Whereas others are making changes every session, comparing notes and data, and establishing a decent baseline setup for a track
Today, 08:25 PM 38bfast Tire wear will tell you a lot about what camber you should be running..
Today, 08:25 PM glove Braking Deeper into the Corners and Faster Entry Speed. Is there a particular way/drill/practice/technique to Braking Deeper into the Corners? And to get Faster Entry Speed? I have read that good club drivers have excellent exit speed, pros have excellent mid corner speed and exit speed, and legends have excellent entry speed (and of course excellent mid corner and exit speed).
Today, 08:25 PM DrDomm new control arms will add a degree?
Today, 08:25 PM Mark McCallister my understanding is that temps are fairly useless at places like sebring/daytona due to the long straights before pit-in
Today, 08:24 PM Charles Boehly I have the same problem. hence all new suspension bits.
Today, 08:24 PM DrDomm '99? at what ride height?
Today, 08:24 PM Charles Boehly front 3-3 1/2, rear 2-2 1/2
Today, 08:24 PM Dave Metz Always just done rear. Never touched front.
Today, 08:24 PM DrDomm should i get a crow bar?
Today, 08:24 PM Todd Lamb exactly Russ
Today, 08:23 PM DrDomm I'm maxed out in front...
Today, 08:23 PM DrDomm Charles, how?
Today, 08:23 PM Jim Drago I am equally lazy on temps ...
Today, 08:23 PM FTodaro Dave, depends on how wet, total wash out i unhook both.
Today, 08:23 PM Charles Boehly Domm, switch the front and rear camber settings.
Today, 08:23 PM Jim Drago Not joking, many guys I have worked with just want to go with more camber for no reason other than "thinking it is better"
Today, 08:23 PM DrDomm Good point Jim...my "crew" has been lazy about temps.
Today, 08:23 PM RussMcB Todd, good explanation. I remember hearing your tires can only do so much - 100% braking, 10% longitudinal, or some combination of turning and longitudinal so you are trying to always generate the most grip. Staying on the oter edges of the Friction Circle.
Today, 08:22 PM Dave Metz Unhook both frank?
Today, 08:22 PM DrDomm I'm 2.6/2.8 in front...3.4/3.3 rear
Today, 08:22 PM Todd Lamb Whereas I try to avoid the slide completely
Today, 08:22 PM Charles Boehly Jim, so back to an earlier question, are you looking for an even spread of temps across the tire or a even graduation (165-170-175) out to in across the tire?
Today, 08:22 PM Danny Steyn For me the rain is about inducing the slide before it happens. It is easier to control something that you initiate than to react to something that happens to you. The lack of delay is your friend. So I try to slide the car intentionally to find the limits and then back off a hair
Today, 08:22 PM FTodaro At Mid O, a difficult rain track in my opinion, i unhook sways. did not feel as scary for me at Atlanta
Today, 08:22 PM Todd Lamb Rain driving = constantly looking for grip, "seeing the grip" like they used to say Earnhardt could "see the air"
Today, 08:22 PM Jim Drago Domm depends... pyrommeter.
Today, 08:22 PM DrDomm Joking, Jim?
Today, 08:21 PM Jim Drago if -2.5 is good, -3.25 has to be better
Today, 08:21 PM Michael Novak How do you know without tire temps you have too much camber?
Today, 08:21 PM Todd Lamb The bottom line with rain driving anyway, it's all about finding the rain line and not scaring yourself when it crosses the dry line
Today, 08:21 PM DrDomm So Jim, how much is "needed"?
Today, 08:21 PM FTodaro Danny you just like it to slide,
Today, 08:21 PM Jim Drago A lot of people run more camber than needed because it makes them feel good and secure. At least that has been my experience
Today, 08:21 PM Mike Collins Danny lies....he does bolt on rain tires
Today, 08:20 PM Todd Lamb ....6, 5, 4, 3, as the car reaches approx half the max side load. Then 3, 2, 1, and off the brakes "rolling the car into the corner" with a little rotation from the trailbraking. You'll then go to a little maintenance throttle to "catch" the car or settle the back end (putting some weight back to the rear). And then begin to accel off the corner.
Today, 08:20 PM DrDomm security blanket?
Today, 08:20 PM Danny Steyn NO Frank - no changes at all from my dry setup when raining, damp or monsoon
Today, 08:20 PM Jim Drago Danny runs with bars, Dom camber is often preference and a personal security blanket
Today, 08:20 PM FTodaro Rain what about raising RH soften to the shock
Today, 08:20 PM Sebastian Landy Sebastian Landy has left the room
Today, 08:19 PM Mike Collins inside rear tire
Today, 08:19 PM JCOgle JCOgle has left the room
Today, 08:19 PM Todd Lamb Trailbraking example - as you approach a very slow corner from a very fast straight...you'll be a 10 out of 10 on the brake pedal. As you approach the turn in, you need to begin releasing the brake pedal. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6....and begin to turn the steering to the max angle for that particular corner....as the car begins to side load, you need to continue releasing the brake....more
Today, 08:18 PM Roger Caddell Both to increase grip. If you have not tried more toe out in the front in the rain you should. This from a guy in Washington!
Today, 08:18 PM Mike Collins I match front and rear camber and only run slight less .3 on the predominant inside tire.
Today, 08:18 PM FTodaro Rain Danny do you unhook the sways?
Today, 08:18 PM DrDomm I have more camber in rear...bad?
Today, 08:18 PM Danny Steyn For RAIN - then find where the track has grip in the corners - most often it will be around the outside "rim" but not always. Thats why its imperative to run EVERY rain session you get even test days and qualifying. I consider this investing and makeing a deposit in my BANK of rain experience for that track. One day I know I am going to need to draw down on that investment - I never miss a rain session
Today, 08:18 PM Michael Novak Please talk about front and rear camber. Also side to side. JD bible says start with .5 less in the rear.
Today, 08:17 PM Charles Boehly Roger, lower pressures to reduce effective spring rate and some toe in yes?
Today, 08:17 PM FTodaro FTodaro has entered the room
Today, 08:17 PM FTodaro FTodaro has left the room
Today, 08:16 PM Roger Caddell Our rain setup was our dry setup with only 2 exceptions. Tire pressures and front toe.
Today, 08:16 PM Mike Collins Ive tried both wet and dry set ups in the rain...does not really matter for me...
Today, 08:16 PM Danny Steyn For RAIN - most of the gains are to be made in the braking zones. Find out what the track will allow you in terms of max brake pressure. You will be surprised
Today, 08:16 PM DrDomm How important is late apex?
Today, 08:16 PM Chris Ashcraft Chris Ashcraft has left the room
Today, 08:16 PM Jim Drago brb
Today, 08:15 PM Todd Lamb More detail on trailbraking coming up - the advanced version
Today, 08:15 PM Doug Roderick Doug Roderick has entered the room
Today, 08:15 PM Todd Lamb Sir Jackie is a smart man!
Today, 08:15 PM Jim Drago I run a wet set up as well, but not extreme unless weather is extreme. Hard to argue with results though
Today, 08:15 PM Todd Lamb glove - it's all about the brake release - you have to unsqueeze the brake
Today, 08:15 PM Charles Boehly Todd, your take?
Today, 08:14 PM Charles Boehly So you change your style and square the corners up, go off "the line" and such. Any other tidbits?
Today, 08:14 PM Todd Lamb And Danny and I differ there....
Today, 08:14 PM glove Coming off the Brakes. How do the experts roll off of the brakes? I've heard two versions.1. Come off of the brakes as fast as you can. 2. Roll off slowly. Jackie stewart claims that he won most races because he rolled off of the brakes slower than the others.
Today, 08:14 PM Brian Ghidinelli i have even more respect for Danny's skills in the wet now.
Today, 08:14 PM Charles Boehly todd, my experience confirms those numbers
Today, 08:14 PM Danny Steyn My rain setup IS my dry setup - no changes to tire pressure, I do not disconnect the bars. No changes at all other than the way I drive. I do this because if the rain subsides, the gains to be made as the track dries is much more than the gains you will get in the wet with a wet weather setup
Today, 08:13 PM DrDomm k
Today, 08:13 PM Charles Boehly my
Today, 08:13 PM Jim Drago I do not preload bars.
Today, 08:13 PM 38bfast +1 for comfortable. Every turn should be a oh crap movement.
Today, 08:13 PM Kim H Kim H has entered the room
Today, 08:13 PM Jim Drago It is also the closer you are to true 50/50 weight distribution the more effect a change has in %
Today, 08:13 PM DrDomm Anyone preload the sway bars?
Today, 08:13 PM Todd Lamb I am talking 1/3 turn on all 4 corners, so ride height stays the same when making a cross change....sorry may be off topic
Today, 08:12 PM Brian Ghidinelli todd - i think we see a difference in front to rear for some reason? maybe just us.
Today, 08:12 PM Brian Ghidinelli as a benchmark on a 99, I think 1 full turn in the front is 0.7% weight change and in the rear it's 1% (or that might be backwards), but that's what kind of an impact a full turn can have
Today, 08:12 PM Mike Collins The car is not a potato chip. It won't "bend" with spring adjustments. Its just how much weight each spring is holding
Today, 08:12 PM Charles Boehly DS. Casue it could dry of course but say deluge, would you lower pressures or raise and would you touch the sways?
Today, 08:12 PM Todd Lamb 1/3 turn on each corner (cross) equals about 1/2% cross change
Today, 08:12 PM Jim Drago One thing I heard the other day from Jimmie Johnson and it really holds true IMO.. You should not feel "comfortable", if you are Comfortable" you are going too slow.
Today, 08:12 PM DrDomm Ahhh.
Today, 08:11 PM Charles Boehly steveracer. more change with small rotations closer to 50/50. less as you get away. yes?
Today, 08:11 PM RussMcB Dr Dmm - No. Imagine the change you made was raise RF and LR spring perches while lowering the spring perches for the LF and RR. That would leave the car "looking" the same ride ht.
Today, 08:11 PM Michael Novak Michael Novak has entered the room
Today, 08:11 PM Danny Steyn CB - I run my DRY setup for full wet / rain for one very simple reason - guess why???
Today, 08:11 PM Mike Collins 1/8 turn
Today, 08:10 PM steveracer How much spring collar change to see a difference? 1/2 turn? 1/4 turn?
Today, 08:10 PM DrDomm Sway bar settings? Soft in rear all the time? Preload?
Today, 08:10 PM Charles Boehly DS, rain setup? Pressures? sways? Think full wet.
Today, 08:10 PM FTodaro Thanks Mike I new there was a correct name for it
Today, 08:10 PM Danny Steyn Brian - I have learned so much about draft this year - 16th to first at VIR, 26th to 3rd at Runoffs, 26th to 1st at ARRC bonus race. There is an entire science in the draft as it applies to SM speficcally - coudl write a book from what i learned this year
Today, 08:09 PM RussMcB Thanks, Danny. Makes sense.
Today, 08:09 PM Mike Collins Trailing Throttle oversteer.
Today, 08:09 PM DrDomm I'm confused, russ...wouldn't that change ride height?
Today, 08:09 PM FTodaro At MIS this year, really needed to learn and use Throttle off oversteer or you were slow
Today, 08:09 PM Todd Lamb FT that is actually one way to rotate the car, a fast corner version of trailbraking
Today, 08:09 PM Jim Drago I have seen them, he just doesnt talk about
Today, 08:09 PM RussMcB DrDomm - Set ride ht first. Then, you can adjust the FOUR spring perchaes to get desired corner wt while leaving ride height where it is.
Today, 08:08 PM Brian Ghidinelli i'm surprised danny doesn't run pitot tubes on the hood to calculate the draft...
Today, 08:08 PM FTodaro Todd "you actually let the car roll (no throttle?) for a split second " throttle off oversteer...
Today, 08:08 PM Jim Drago good point Danny
Today, 08:08 PM Jim Drago Yes Steve..I set my car up to be the fastest at the end of the race when you often need to "race"
Today, 08:08 PM albertflores66 albertflores66 has left the room
Today, 08:07 PM Danny Steyn Russ - when looking at fast laps, somtimes you see anomalies, like higher than normal topspeed. WIthout video there is no way to know if a draft or bump was the reason. Also when you see slower than normal mid corner speeds the video will often reveal that you were following someone and couldnt judge the lines as well - without vidfeo you are guessing at why the data is different on that lap
Today, 08:07 PM DrDomm How, russ? I'm not a jockey
Today, 08:07 PM DCP DCP has entered the room
Today, 08:07 PM Todd Lamb Glove: So when you come off the brake, you actually let the car roll (no throttle?) for a split second or so and then start feeding in the maintenance throttle and then to full throttle? To oversimplify, yes. However that does not account for any trailbraking. And to clarify, "let the car roll" is more of an instructional command - meaning "You are overslowing the corners! Get off the brakes and utilize the grip of the car"
Today, 08:07 PM steveracer So foes the negative rake help lessen the late race looseness?
Today, 08:07 PM RussMcB DrDomm, you can adj corner wts without affecting rd height.
Today, 08:07 PM DrDomm I'm prolly close to those heights, but was 3/8 heigher on RR for example...to get 50.7
Today, 08:07 PM Jim Drago pinch weld is not a great way to do this, if within 1/8 side to side, you are fine
Today, 08:07 PM Dave Metz Nice sheet TL
Today, 08:06 PM Jim Drago explain Domm?
Today, 08:06 PM DrDomm Jim, to get my cross around 50%...my ride heights are off side to sided
Today, 08:06 PM bienc bienc has left the room
Today, 08:06 PM David L David L has left the room
Today, 08:06 PM Michael Novak Michael Novak has left the room
Today, 08:05 PM Jim Drago Domm I set up at 4 1/2- 5/8 front at pinch and 4 3/8- 1/2 rear for most tracks
Today, 08:05 PM RussMcB Danny, regarding "data - if it is integrated with video you will use it more and the lessons it teaches you will be more insightful", can you give an example or two?
Today, 08:05 PM Mike Collins you wont be able to drive it like that....
Today, 08:05 PM albertflores66 albertflores66 has entered the room
Today, 08:05 PM DrDomm OOOhhhhh
Today, 08:05 PM Glenn Davis Glenn Davis has entered the room
Today, 08:05 PM Mike Collins my car is at 4.375
Today, 08:05 PM bienc bienc has entered the room
Today, 08:05 PM DrDomm I'm prolly that low now...we don't measure at pinch welds
Today, 08:05 PM Danny Steyn Only get to 980 on mine before black stripes - not sure if mine is calibrated right - its all relative
Today, 08:05 PM Jeff Wasilko Jeff Wasilko has entered the room
Today, 08:05 PM Dan Cooper Dan Cooper has left the room
Today, 08:04 PM Brian Ghidinelli I think I see brake PSI up to about 1100 IIRC
Today, 08:04 PM DrDomm Lower than you told me...4.75?
Today, 08:04 PM Todd Lamb Here's a link to a setup sheet I did back in the day, which I filled out EVERY session. To give you an idea of the detail http://toddlamb.com/.../SM_SETUPv3.pdf
Today, 08:04 PM Mike Collins I probably set the car up lower and drive accordingly
Today, 08:04 PM DrDomm Forget 4, I want 3
Today, 08:04 PM Danny Steyn Frank you are forgetting the sphincter muscle sensor - invaluable aid!
Today, 08:04 PM Brian Ghidinelli I think people with karting backgrounds like running on the bump stops - it's instant weight transfer. That's how I inherited justin hall's car and I drove it like that for a season or so but it requires fast hands.
Today, 08:04 PM Jim Drago DS, pretty sure the pressure sensor I use is not accurate.. but works for me. I see 1200/1250 before lock up
Today, 08:04 PM glove Todd, thank you for the detailed explanation. So when you come off the brake, you actually let the car roll (no throttle?) for a split second or so and then start feeding in the maintenance throttle and then to full throttle?
Today, 08:04 PM DrDomm How, mike?
Today, 08:04 PM albertflores66 albertflores66 has left the room
Today, 08:03 PM Mike Collins i can get 4 in the front and rear of my car with NO VOODOO
Today, 08:03 PM FTodaro Brake pressure Jim, what were you working on the application or the release?
Today, 08:03 PM 38bfast Three most important sensors in SM. Steering , brake and throttle
Today, 08:03 PM DrDomm But it's possible?
Today, 08:03 PM Danny Steyn JD what is the most you have seen without locking it up - 1000psi???
Today, 08:03 PM Mike Collins 3 dgrees come from all new, or perfect used parts..its not a secret
Today, 08:03 PM DrDomm Front?
Today, 08:03 PM DrDomm So, 3 degrees?
Today, 08:02 PM Jim Drago I worked a lot on Brake pressure this year, definitely a help. I found I was getting lazy in that department
Today, 08:02 PM DrDomm I'm getting all those sensors this year!
Today, 08:02 PM Mike Collins some of the newer class of younger drivers from Karting love the "low" cars
Today, 08:02 PM Danny Steyn Mark I do that ALL the time
Today, 08:02 PM Roger Caddell and steering Todd... I want to see all of the driver inputs that keep the driver riding that fine edge
Today, 08:02 PM Triple-C Racing Triple-C Racing has entered the room
Today, 08:02 PM Charles Boehly or anywhere at nelson
Today, 08:02 PM 38bfast Steering angle sensor as well
Today, 08:02 PM Danny Steyn Mark McCallisterTL said: "If you are going directly to full throttle you have overslowed the corner." I think I do that often.
Today, 08:02 PM Mark McCallister I would think sitting on the stops would be particularly unfortunate when negotiating T1/T17 @ sebring?
Today, 08:02 PM 38bfast What Todd said
Today, 08:01 PM Chris Ashcraft agreed
Today, 08:01 PM Mike Collins He owns a junkyard..he has tons of "perfectly wrecked cars
Today, 08:01 PM Jim Drago To what Roger said... It has always been MO , you either need to run on the stops or off them, not in between. The in between is when the car can get really twitchy
Today, 08:01 PM Todd Lamb Speaking of data - lately I've found throttle and brake pressure traces to be invaluable info when working on trailbraking and the finer points of going fast.
Today, 08:01 PM DrDomm I want 3
Today, 08:01 PM DrDomm Does he have 3 degrees?
Today, 08:01 PM albertflores66 albertflores66 has entered the room
Today, 08:01 PM Charles Boehly DS, how do you get that 3 deg of camber without being on the bumpstops?
Today, 08:00 PM Mike Collins Chris A. Motor work or the like does not fix anything until you drive the car consistently.
Today, 08:00 PM Danny Steyn regarding data - if it is integrated with video you will use it more and the lessons it teaches you will be more insightful
Today, 08:00 PM Roger Caddell When we were running, the northern CA guys all ran on the stops and loved it.
Today, 08:00 PM Jim Drago SM7
Today, 08:00 PM Jim Drago FT, I didnt drive the SM7, but nothing leads me to think we will be setting up any different. Side walls are the same
Today, 08:00 PM Mark McCallister TL said: "If you are going directly to full throttle you have overslowed the corner." I think I do that often.
Today, 08:00 PM Charles Boehly I figured as much.
Today, 08:00 PM Danny Steyn Ralph, I dont like the bumpstops but I do get there. Gorilla ran on them all teh time but I find the car too skittish
Today, 08:00 PM Chris Ashcraft without being able to afford a full race motor from one of you, how much will a finished spec head help on a low milage 1.6
Today, 07:59 PM DrDomm Oh, fatcats or not?
Today, 07:59 PM Todd Lamb What is the advantage of letting the car roll through the turn? lap times - utilizing the grip of the car to achieve corner speed
Today, 07:59 PM makus0025 makus0025 has entered the room
Today, 07:59 PM FTodaro Jim anything you can share about the SM7 would you set up the car the same with the new tire. Stiffer side wall? less camber?
Today, 07:59 PM RussMcB Charles, it's worth a lot to a new driver if you are lucky to get data from a better driver.
Today, 07:59 PM 38bfast We are always going to be on the stops on these cars. The key is how soon and how hard you hit them
Today, 07:59 PM Danny Steyn CB - Data is EVERYTHING - and I mean it sincerely
Today, 07:59 PM Roger Caddell Charles, it really varies. New drivers still learning, a lot. Experienced guys less but the very impoortant last few tenths
Today, 07:59 PM DrDomm So danny says to run on the bumpstops?
Today, 07:59 PM Joe Benton Joe Benton has entered the room
Today, 07:59 PM Todd Lamb which leads to the next question: How long do you let it roll through the turn? Are you on/off/maintenance throttle when you let the car roll through the turn? You let it roll until you are approaching min corner speed, then apply maintenance throttle. If you are going directly to full throttle you have overslowed the corner.
Today, 07:59 PM Jim Drago Charles IMO hard to answer that, depends how far you are off etc?
Today, 07:58 PM Danny Steyn This season cars are teh lowest I have ever seen, and it works on the Hoosiers. The additional camber really helps
Today, 07:58 PM Charles Boehly Question for Roger and all who use data, How much is it really worth in time on average?
Today, 07:58 PM Dan Cooper Dan Cooper has entered the room
Today, 07:58 PM Roger Caddell We raced before the cars were as low as they are now...
Today, 07:58 PM Jim Drago Roger Cadell when into ride height sensors and data in his webinar, it is recorded so you can watch
Today, 07:57 PM Roger Caddell Andrew hated when the feel when the car got onto the front bump stops and I would hear about it after just a couple of corners. This is why I added front suspension sensors to work as close to the stops without riding them.
Today, 07:57 PM Jim Drago 38bfast
Today, 07:57 PM Jim Drago what Ralph said..
Today, 07:57 PM DrDomm agreed about zip ties
Today, 07:57 PM Danny Steyn Yup JD - several times discovered the KEY SECRET a week later after reviewing data, video and notes
Today, 07:57 PM Jim Drago We are always getting to the stops, you just dont want to fully compress them.
Today, 07:57 PM Mike Collins the drivers with really slow hands are really good at "rolling" the car into the corner
Today, 07:56 PM 38bfast Shock pots
Today, 07:56 PM Todd Lamb At what point during the turn do you let it roll through the turn? As soon as you are close to min corner speed you need to release the brake and let the car roll while turning. Keep in mind that the car isn't done slowing when you release the brake, because turning the wheel will scrub speed.
Today, 07:56 PM Mark McCallister that's what i thought
Today, 07:56 PM Jim Drago I dont believe the zip tie works at all.
Today, 07:56 PM Mike Collins some drivers with REALLY slow hands can run the car lower.
Today, 07:56 PM DrDomm thanks mike
Today, 07:56 PM Dan Cooper Dan Cooper has left the room
Today, 07:55 PM Mark McCallister any way to detect bottoming? I'm not sure the old zip-tie on the shock shaft works with the FC bump stops?
Today, 07:55 PM Todd Lamb What does rolling the car through the corner mean? It means release the brake and turn, letting the car load up into the corner. Use the grip of the car/tires. Turn grip into speed.
Today, 07:55 PM Jim Drago I hate when that happens Danny! Many times I "figured" something out a week after leaving a track
Today, 07:55 PM David L What are the disadvantages of running to high, and what effects would we see?
Today, 07:55 PM Danny Steyn Not so much need for rolling through the turn with 125 HP cars - this applies more to high HP cars IMO, where you come off the brakes, roll mid corner speed,and delay the application of throttle
Today, 07:55 PM Rob Hines What is the range of rake that you run on your car? -1/8" to +1/8"?
Today, 07:55 PM Mike Collins start with the car t 4.75" at the pinch weld and then corner balance WITHOUTlowering the car.
Today, 07:54 PM Jim Drago More or less steering wheel input makes no change
Today, 07:54 PM Jim Drago The car will literally turn in and then skate, that is severe case
Today, 07:54 PM Todd Lamb sorry cut and paste, working on it
Today, 07:54 PM Danny Steyn Data, video and notes. If you work at it and keep detailed notes, it is amazing what you will learn, sometimes several days later when you revisit the data
Today, 07:54 PM Jim Drago On the front Russ.. when tight..
Today, 07:54 PM Mike Collins when the car "rest" on the bump stops you are losing the dynamic advantage of the suspension
Today, 07:53 PM DrDomm Wrong setup?
Today, 07:53 PM Todd Lamb Rolling the Car Thru the Turn. 1) From highly advanced drivers, I hear them use the term/phrase: let the car roll through the turn. What exactly does this mean? At what point during the turn do you let it roll through the turn? How long do you let it roll through the turn? Are you on/off/maintenance throttle when you let the car roll through the turn? What is the advantage of letting the car roll through the turn
Today, 07:53 PM DrDomm What am I doing wrong?
Today, 07:53 PM Jim Drago I see SOOOO many people lowering the front because the car pushes.. If it is already too low and on the stops, they are actually doing the commplete WRONG adjustment
Today, 07:53 PM DrDomm Why, Mike?
Today, 07:53 PM DrDomm great Q Russ.
Today, 07:53 PM Mike Collins you are driving the back tires off the car
Today, 07:53 PM RussMcB What are the signs of "UNLESS TOO low Already"?
Today, 07:53 PM steveracer What's too low?
Today, 07:53 PM Todd Lamb working on rolling thru corner....
Today, 07:53 PM DrDomm I always get overster at end of races
Today, 07:52 PM DrDomm Good point
Today, 07:52 PM Jim Drago Think of it this way Domm.. This is important.. UNLESS TOO low Already.... lower the end that needs grip
Today, 07:52 PM Danny Steyn Mike (DOH)
Today, 07:52 PM Danny Steyn Miek - pretty much!
Today, 07:51 PM FTodaro negative rake tightens up the car and control under heavy breaking
Today, 07:51 PM Mike Collins Danny thinks the throttle is an on/off switch
Today, 07:51 PM DrDomm What bad habit?
Today, 07:51 PM DrDomm How does it help
Today, 07:51 PM DrDomm I don't think he's the only one.
Today, 07:51 PM Jim Drago Not sure what others do, but I generally run a little negative rake all the time
Today, 07:51 PM Danny Steyn I run negative rake - if you are someone that gets to the throttle really fast negative rake will help you manage the rear
Today, 07:51 PM Charles Boehly or west coast
Today, 07:50 PM Mr.Pink Mr.Pink has entered the room
Today, 07:50 PM Mike Collins /negative rake is a Danny thing ONLY...That setup fixes other habits
Today, 07:50 PM Jim Drago If you plot the roll centers of the car, you will see that the rear should e far lower than the front.
Today, 07:50 PM RussMcB Is there an easy 'yes' or 'no' answer to: At Rd Atl (mostly right turns), do you put x% wedge so the RF and LR are "heavy" (to help the front end)?
Today, 07:50 PM DrDomm what's the purpose? how does it work?
Today, 07:50 PM Charles Boehly Yes, negative rake too. Danny Steyn has made comments on this in the past. Thoughts?
Today, 07:50 PM Danny Steyn And added to the notes, make sure that after the session you rename your traqmate data and video filenames to indicate what you did differently so you can always search your archive of data - For instance every rain session should be marked rain or damp so you can quickly pull it out and look at the data and video if the conditions suddenly change
Today, 07:50 PM DrDomm Ok, why?
Today, 07:50 PM FTodaro Tire gauge maintenance
Today, 07:50 PM Jim Drago Negative rake is the rear being lower than the front
Today, 07:49 PM Charles Boehly Speaking of camber, 99s have difficulty getting more than 2-2 1/4. My experience shows that leaves the outside temps hotter suggesting rollover. Thoughts on achieving more?
Today, 07:49 PM DrDomm Negative Rake?
Today, 07:49 PM Jim Drago while Todd is working on that, anything else?
Today, 07:48 PM Jim Drago Todd you take that one please.. rolling the corner
Today, 07:48 PM Jim Drago We have notes from RA under almost every temp/ weather condition at this point
Today, 07:48 PM glove Rolling the Car Thru the Turn. 1) From highly advanced drivers, I hear them use the term/phrase: let the car roll through the turn. What exactly does this mean? At what point during the turn do you let it roll through the turn? How long do you let it roll through the turn? Are you on/off/maintenance throttle when you let the car roll through the turn? What is the advantage of letting the car roll through the turn? Last time I was at the track, I feel like I did the corre
Today, 07:48 PM Danny Steyn Learned my note taking from Lamb!!! Now have HUGE FILES OF NOTES - not kidding
Today, 07:47 PM FTodaro Ie. RR pressure up loose
Today, 07:47 PM Todd Lamb yes yes yes - notes always!!!!
Today, 07:47 PM FTodaro you can read the same information from tire pressure that you get from temps
Today, 07:47 PM Danny Steyn While we are on setup - once you have a baseline, make sure you are making notes of every change before going out, and then immediately after returning
Today, 07:47 PM Jim Drago I ( most)can turn with .3-5 of ANY set up I put on the car with a starting point of -3 on all four wheels, 50.0% cross .. The difference is consistency and not burning off the tires after 2-3 laps trying to do it.
Today, 07:47 PM Charles Boehly Looser seems to reduce some drag. Ask Saul.
Today, 07:47 PM Todd Lamb agree Danny - but most guys aren't at that level or don't have that feel for setup
Today, 07:46 PM DrDomm speakng of tires...starting pressures/hot pressures? Hoosiers, of course
Today, 07:46 PM Dan Cooper That's what' I was thinking domm. Do tell
Today, 07:46 PM Todd Lamb gave up on tire temps after that
Today, 07:46 PM Danny Steyn YUP TL - but its those last few 10ths that make you play with setup every session until the race
Today, 07:46 PM Todd Lamb I tried to check tire temps - but due to the nature of road courses they only ended up telling me what I already knew: rear tires hotter = loose, front tires hotter = push
Today, 07:46 PM DrDomm Diff setting?
Today, 07:45 PM Charles Boehly AT MO, over 52% cross gets wheel spin at the keyhole if your diff is set on the "loose" side.
Today, 07:45 PM Jim Drago I agree Todd..
Today, 07:45 PM Mike Collins I agree with TOdd.
Today, 07:45 PM Roger Caddell Fully agree Todd
Today, 07:45 PM Todd Lamb I will interject an interesting take on all this "specialized setup" stuff - if you find the sweet spot on the car setup (i.e. a good baseline) you'll be 97% there at every track in the country with small cross and rear ride height changes.
Today, 07:45 PM Charles Boehly And regarding tire temps, are you looking for an even spread (175-175-175) out to in or more of a (165-170-175) out to in?
Today, 07:45 PM Mike Collins NJ likes new tires...it fixes lots of evil in the set up
Today, 07:45 PM Dave Metz Hmmm going to have to check mine. Have been getting a fair amount of wheel spin there.
Today, 07:45 PM DrDomm I couldn't believe the wheelspin at MO...loved that track! Thanks Frank
Today, 07:45 PM Danny Steyn JD - I had so many issues at NJ that I never got the setup down
Today, 07:44 PM Roger Caddell Way back we rarely changed crossweight, Andrew just liked other changes and he did not feel differences in crossweight. Maybe it was his driving style but rake was the first thing in his checklist.
Today, 07:44 PM FTodaro To much cross at mid o will cause wheel spin at some point
Today, 07:44 PM Jim Drago Danny wasn't NJ that way as well?
Today, 07:44 PM DrDomm Ahhh...thanks mike...interesting!
Today, 07:43 PM Danny Steyn At Mid Ohio - experiment all the way up until you are in the 53% range - you will be gaining places and losing on others, its always a compromise
Today, 07:43 PM Todd Lamb Agree - tune to win
Today, 07:43 PM Mike Collins if the track is mostly rights... right rear tire gets slightly less camber...
Today, 07:43 PM Charles Boehly Camber mainly via tire temps yes?
Today, 07:43 PM DrDomm "off rear tire"?
Today, 07:43 PM Jim Drago "Tune to win"
Today, 07:43 PM David L What is the best book explaining car handling/adjustments anyone has ever read?
Today, 07:43 PM Jim Drago I am not a huge fan of adjusting camber at the track, but I do it when needed. But not nearly as often as many others
Today, 07:42 PM Chris Ashcraft What is the exception at MO
Today, 07:42 PM Todd Lamb FT - completely disagree - all the fast guys trail brake. But on the other hand, I would say trailbraking is the last thing to focus on, and to his point since SM is a momentum class there's less trailbraking than with faster cars. But still very important. Trailbrake in slow/medium corners.
Today, 07:42 PM Charles Boehly Jim, I agree with you regarding MO.
Today, 07:42 PM Dave Metz Do tell on M-O
Today, 07:42 PM Mike Collins DrD.. Yes EXCEPT to off rear tire..that gets stood up
Today, 07:42 PM steveracer Which wedge for which turn? IE: 48 for lefts, or rights?
Today, 07:42 PM Jim Drago Mid Ohio is the one biggest exceptions
Today, 07:42 PM DrDomm do you leave camber, caster, toe the same, in general?
Today, 07:42 PM Danny Steyn Barber is all about handling and keeping speed through the turns - not so much about exit speed. Road Atlanta is about getting a great exit from T7 and T10A. these are slowish corners. Sebring is all about exit speeds as all the passing takes place in the braking zones
Today, 07:42 PM Jim Drago I seldom find myself below 49 or above 51 at 95% of the tracks I go to
Today, 07:41 PM Charles Boehly So to fine tune the second thru whatever turns, you would tune via cross or go with toe, sway or pressures?
Today, 07:41 PM Mike Collins Dr Domm..correct
Today, 07:41 PM DrDomm Thanks Mike...48-52%?
Today, 07:41 PM RussMcB My first year in SM. Pls forgive me if too basic: At Rd Atl (mostly right turns), do you put x% wedge so the RF and LR are "heavy" (to help the front end)?
Today, 07:41 PM Jim Drago I live with the handling in carousel if 14 and 3 are spot on
Today, 07:41 PM Mike Collins I think we need to give some folks a range to work within. I try not to wedge or dewedge the car by more than 2%
Today, 07:41 PM FTodaro Todd how do you square with Dave's post this week that sm likes braking in a straight line then turn in
Today, 07:41 PM Forrest Landy Forrest Landy has left the room
Today, 07:40 PM Jim Drago Road America I start with 14 and 3
Today, 07:40 PM Jim Drago Well at Road Atlanta say.. You need to make sure your car is handlin out of seven first
Today, 07:40 PM Todd Lamb Trailbraking keeps some extra weight on the nose at turn in, which keeps the rear a little lighter, allowing for rotation on corner entry that helps point the car towards the apex and allow for quicker throttle application. The hardest thing to learn in racing is trailbraking, because the penalty for getting it wrong is usually massive oversteer. Releasing the brake correctly is the KEY to going fast.
Today, 07:40 PM DrDomm Any examples, jim? Like what range for camber/cross?
Today, 07:39 PM Jim Drago Thank you Danny.. If anyone knows the answer, feel free to type them out as it is hard to keep up
Today, 07:39 PM Charles Boehly Exactly my question. What circumstances/characteristics would sway you in each direction?
Today, 07:39 PM SpecCanuck SpecCanuck has entered the room
Today, 07:39 PM Jim Drago In my case, we run many of the same tracks, so we have many known good starting points on cross and camber
Today, 07:39 PM Danny Steyn @ Mark - you described two similar tracks and one completely different track - setup for Barber is very different for Sebring and RA which are very similar
Today, 07:38 PM Jim Drago Charles, I start with the most important corner, and work backwards... Unless the most important is a right, and the next three most important are lefts. I have a decision to make in that case
Today, 07:38 PM DrDomm When you guys talk about different setup for different tracks, what are you changing? Camber, toe, caster? Or just ride heights/cross and pressures?
Today, 07:38 PM Mike Collins Mike Collins has entered the room
Today, 07:37 PM Charles Boehly When it comes to finding an initial setup for a certain track, is it reasonable to set the car with the appropriate wedge/dewedge for the most important turn and tune from there? If so, how do you know how much cross is necessary? i.e., does a few turns that would require the opposite setting temper the cross for the optimum turn or do those become throwaway turns?
Today, 07:37 PM FTodaro meant pinch welds go ahead todd
Today, 07:37 PM Mark McCallister What typically changes on setup say road atlanta vs. sebring vs barber?
Today, 07:37 PM Todd Lamb Trailbraking - here's a short answer (more to follow): trailbraking is very important to get that last 1.5 seconds at most tracks. The basic premise is to turn in with a little brake in an attempt to spin the car, then save it with a little throttle application. More trailbraking in slow corners, a lot less in fast corners.
Today, 07:36 PM FTodaro so do most people still measure at the spring perches, or getting measurements at the bump stops.
Today, 07:36 PM Roger Caddell My work here is done.
Today, 07:36 PM Jim Drago Any one else?
Today, 07:36 PM Jim Drago Ok well that seems to be it, thanks for attending
Today, 07:36 PM Jim Drago lol
Today, 07:36 PM Roger Caddell "good is not good enough" Jim Drago
Today, 07:35 PM RussMcB I can hear Jim.
Today, 07:35 PM David L Thanks Jim
Today, 07:35 PM Forrest Landy Forrest Landy has entered the room
Today, 07:35 PM RussMcB Todd, I can't hear you. Turn up your mic.
Today, 07:35 PM Jim Drago So yes, every weekend and tune when it is not perfect at the track, good is not good enough
Today, 07:35 PM Rob Hines Rob Hines has entered the room
Today, 07:35 PM Danny Steyn N O P A R I T Y D I S C U S S I O N S H E R E
Today, 07:35 PM Todd Lamb in the interest of not overscrolling questions and answers, can we please keep the funny comments to a minimum (it pains me to say that)
Today, 07:35 PM Jim Drago David, The biggest gain in any SPEC series IMO is the ability to put what little power down as early as possible. Often what is perceieved as power ( it is power some times) but when the front guys are all within 2hp, the biggest issue is handling IMO, not the 2Hp
Today, 07:34 PM steveracer Parity means EVERYONE drives a 1.6 LOL!
Today, 07:33 PM Todd Lamb David - at major events it is important every day. Otherwise at least once every couple of races on a budget. Will answer trailbrake next...
Today, 07:33 PM Danny Steyn David L - every track is different and will need a different setup
Today, 07:33 PM Jim Drago I will work on corner balance
Today, 07:33 PM Jim Drago Todd you take trail brake
Today, 07:33 PM RussMcB RussMcB has entered the room
Today, 07:33 PM Jim Drago oh jeez Danny
Today, 07:32 PM David L @Jim/ Todd L. How important is it to corner balance the car before every weekend. And if so why?
Today, 07:32 PM steveracer So tell usabout trail braking, Todd.
Today, 07:32 PM Danny Steyn JD - can we start off with a simple parity thread????
Today, 07:32 PM Roger Caddell I will Brian, thanks... I like more data!
Today, 07:32 PM Michael Novak Michael Novak has entered the room
Today, 07:32 PM Jim Drago If this format is something we want to do, we can probably come up with better software

[Mike Collins]

Thanks Jim.

 

Thanks to Todd Lamb, Roger Caddell, Danny Steyn and the other "Experts" that helped with the chat.

[Michael Novak]

Thanks Jim.

 

Thanks to Todd Lamb, Roger Caddell, Danny Steyn and the other "Experts" that helped with the chat.

 

Great job by the group in working to get quality information out to the community. This is once again why this class is great! It sadly reminded me of all the things I am doing wrong or could be doing a lot better.

[Todd Lamb]

Good stuff - looking forward to the next one!

[Keith Andrews]

That was great!  The information in the conversations was excellent.  Good job guys.  

[AW33COM]

Follow up questions:

 

You derake the Miata in order to help the rear sit.  Makes sense.

You trail brake in order to help the front sit.  Makes sense.

 

But doesn't a deraked Miata undo trail braking gains?  And is this the reason why Dave says the Miata prefers to use the braking zone and turn without trail braking?  More, wouldn't a balanced car with some rake and trail braking be faster overall?  Is there a way to measure all this besides lap times? I don't have an answer for any of these, but I'm just thinking out loud following the discussion above, which was very very good, but the good stuff was "buried" down deep.

[Todd Lamb]

Separate the two issues - they are not together:

 

You add rake to the car to loosen it up. You reduce rake to tighten it up. It has nothing to do with "sit", it has to do with higher or lower CG affecting the balance of the car under side load.

 

You trail brake to keep more weight on the nose of the car at initial turn in....not related to the rake in any meaningful way within the confines of SM setup.

[Parity]

Just read the whole thing. Thanks guys. 

[JRHille]

Great info, thanks for the copy paste!

[Danny Steyn]

AW33- following up on Todds response above. As he states they are seperate and unrelated. However all things are ALWAYS related so you are always looking for the best compromise

 

The way I visualize it is that

 

• trail braking essentially continues to add weight to the front tires through the initial turn in, improving turn in and front grip, so I use trail breaking when you find the front of the car washing out or pushing wide of the apex
• Derake softens the rear and allows you to handle faster application of throttle, so I derake (lower the rear) when I feel that  teh rear end is braking away too early on the application of WOT.

 

But do remember that different drivers like cars setup completely differently. For instance Cliff Brown, Todd Buras and I drive with similar styles, we are turning the car with the rear of the car. Alex Bolanos and Andrew von C drive with way more front end bite than I could ever handle. I honestly cannot drive the car the way they like it. So find our WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, and then experiment, take notes compare times, exit speeds, straight line times etc, and work on your own custom setup.

 

As we said in the chat, there is NO point to running two sessions with the same setup. You have learned NOTHING. Experiment, go too far, then back off but make sure you are slowly refining the envelope of what works for you.

[Kevin B]

Hi all,

I missed the live version last night but it was great to read through the logs tonight.  Thank you very much for your time, experience and willingness to help!  For those of you also catching up afterwards, it's quite easy to copy/paste the logs into a spreadsheet and then sort the data A-Z to correct/flip the top to bottom sequence so that it's easier to read/scroll through.

[AW33COM]

You trail brake to keep more weight on the nose of the car at initial turn in....not related to the rake in any meaningful way within the confines of SM setup.

 

 

I assumed they were related, because less weight will get transferred to the front with the deraked, or less raked car.

If it was not for the Ask Expert I would not know you guys up front actually race with the deraked Miata.

 

Danny, I agree, this is one of those compromise/balance items per driver.  Thanks. 

[RussMcB]

I'm not sure if small changes of rake make a difference in f-r weight transfer.  I believe if you brake at x G's, you're still transferring the same amount of weight.

[Jim Drago]

Also important to know many fast guys do not run their cars de raked. As Danny said, find what works well for you.

[DrDomm]

The chat was awesome, and thanks to everyone involved.

 

I did also want to ask a question about brake pads, but forgot.  I've noticed that Danny's no longer running Cobalt.  It got me thinking about what the top guys are trying to accomplish with their brake pad brand/compound selection, and how important they think that is.

[Mike Collins]

DrD

Ive tried them all. They work different for different drivers. Depends what's most important to you. If you you want great customer service and access to technical support go with Carbotech. If you want great initial bite, easy modulation go with Cobalt...you will replace it when it's only half used...the pad changes incredibly when it no longer can dissipate heat. If you want a pad that last forever and it's hard to lock up the tires, get the PFC. I run the Hawk DTC-60 front 30 rear....

I've had plenty of free brake pad deals...I gave up on them...now I just run what I like and I'll change tomorrow if I find a better one.

[Todd Lamb]

Russ - that's exactly the point I was making. Within the confines of SM setup, rake positive or negative will not have any significant impact on trailbraking because it does not significantly affect F-R weight transfer (again, within the confines of SM setup). The trailbraking is a driver dependent thing, and can be adjusted with changes in the release of the brake pedal.

 

In essence, you don't adjust the car for trailbraking, you adjust it for cornering. Then change trailbraking as needed to adapt to the best cornering setup.

 

RE: brake pads - I've tried everything as well. In fact, did a big writeup years ago for the forum on a test I did with OPM. The conclusion was "find what works for you"...a more aggressive pad requires a more delicate pedal. A less aggressive pad requires less pedal feel, but in my opinion was less confidence inspiring. I currently run Hawk DTC60/DTC30 combo. - personal preference.

[Parity]

A take home point for me is how much work you folks put into getting better. Notes, data, iracing, setup changes, etc. Here I thought it was all because you were running '99's;). Sorry couldn't resist. Like Danny said, a lot of mid pack guys are just comfortable and don't work at getting faster. I was afraid to make changes because I was convinced I would make it worse and not be able to fix it. My last race was at WGI and it was my first one in '99. The car was amazing on left turns but pushed on rights badly which at WGI is horrible. I experimented with wedge and ride height all over the place but could barely tell the difference. It was not a well prepped car so there may have been other issues. I'm building a new car for next year and my main objective is to experiment, learn, and work on getting faster. Again, thanks to the experts here for you direction.

[DrDomm]

Paul, the other thing for me has been consistency and confidence.  It's very hard to make setup changes at a track that you have never been to before.  And in general, when you don't have confidence that you're doing things right on the track, it makes it difficult to convince yourself that you should try different things off the track.

 

I finally feel that I'm getting to a consistency level that I now have confidence to try different setup options for next year.  Sadly, I have 4 months to sit around in the snow.  And as usual, I plan on starting the season at a track I have little or no experience at (Road Atlanta).  When will I learn?

[Jim Drago]

Paul
I find your fear of changing a very common issue. For some reason we are more worried about the car getting worse than making it better. I suggest to many to spend a test day doing nothing but making known big swing changes to feel the differences . Once you have a little more feel/experience with what the changes do and how the effect the handling of the car you will be more likely and willing to make the changes. I always tell people to make big swings when doing this so they feel the changes.. On cross I would go one full turn per corner. On rake, two full turns at a time etc. lastly if the car is not handling, you need to force yourself to do something. IMO a bad decision is better than no decision.