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#21
Caveman-kwebb99

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Paul, the other thing for me has been consistency and confidence.  It's very hard to make setup changes at a track that you have never been to before.  And in general, when you don't have confidence that you're doing things right on the track, it makes it difficult to convince yourself that you should try different things off the track.

 

I finally feel that I'm getting to a consistency level that I now have confidence to try different setup options for next year.  Sadly, I have 4 months to sit around in the snow.  And as usual, I plan on starting the season at a track I have little or no experience at (Road Atlanta).  When will I learn?

 

 

This is one of the single most important aspects of coaching... I can remember when i was really fast at my home track, hired a coach and drove a car loaned to me, (dont ask)  but car wa a basket case, the coach which is no secret Todd Lamb had compared my data to his before even comeing to coach me.  I was so far off in the new car and he just kept asking questions till he could get to the bottom of howi could go t a few tenths offhis data to 2 seconds off... finaly he asked the right question!  we made some wholesale setup changes and all of a sudden i was outside pole in a car that wasnt even mine. I could have won that day easily, if it werent for the stress of having a coach and trying many new things, i spun twice and got the the front each time afterwards, it was real eye opener and the coaching let me know how to give myself feedback.  questions are often tricky!  is car to loose or to tight? neither!  ok wo why ar eyo so far off the pace? no idea! ok so what do you think the car will do to you if you drive i 2 seconds faster on pace? It will spin like a top Todd!  ok lets get the car rght! so we did, sometimes the question isnt what te car is doing!  what will the car do? I have a severe adversion to hitting walls!  so I hoold back if car is to lose, I dont have car control skils like Rain man, but i can drive fast if the car is right.  So its paramount for me to get the car right!  And thats a huge reason why I have not been good at Roaf atlanta, I have never had a car i an be 110% confident in, so i can often rip off a top 5 lap but cannot do it with any conistency.   came  back from ARRC asking myself what do you think thecar will do???  wouldnt have ever asked myseld that kinf of question with out Todd's coaching! 


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#22
FTodaro

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Going back to Danny's post, some guy like a loose race car and other driver like it tight but use more turn in, input to rotate the car. It's true you can turn the car with the front or rear wheels.

I am a rear wheel man myself,(loose).

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#23
38bfast

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I always hear about chaging a cars handling to match a drivers style. I would suggest changing handling and driving style to get around the track the quickest. Just because that is the style of driving you are comfortable with does not mean it's the fastest way possible around the track.

If you are not comfortable trail braking it is something you need to work on. It will make you faster
If you are not comfortable left foot braking it is something you need to work on. It will make you faster.
If you are not comfortable with slipping the car the entire turn it is something you need to work on. It will make you faster. The first 1/3 of the turn separates the men from the boys.

So if a driver has driving habits that are not optimal you have to change the cars setup to accommodate. May not be as fast as it could be.

So how do you know what is the fastest way around possible? Trial and lots of data.

This is what works for me. Brake deeper than your comfort zone in a straight line with as much brake as the car will take (tight turn at the end of a long straight). When coming off WOT and going to brake it should happen extremely quick. No bleeding off the gas just before. The closer you get to the corner start bleeding off the brake and inducing a slight amount of slip in the rear end to help rotate the car as you start in the turn (trail brake). Go to WOT as soon as hard as possible to maintain a slight amount of slip in the rear end. At no time should the car be twitchy or unpredictable. I adjust setup to acomodate the above. Use the least amout of brake pressure as possible to get into the turn. This is the biggest gain for 90% of the drivers out there. When I am coaching it seems to me the most common thing said. Less brake in pressure and or duration.

So if a driver drives my car and does not trail brake it in he will come in and say my car does not turn in. If he does not go to WOT as soon as possible and transfer the weight to the ass end the car is going to spin mid turn. I can adjust the car to "his liking" but it will not be as fast.

So be carefull when adjusting the car to a not optimesed driver.

This is where data is so important.
Brake pressure sensor...so you can see if your pressure curve is correct an optimesed. Should look like the backside of a bell curve.
Throttle position sensor....so you can see how early and how fast you can get to WOT. The higher percentage of WOT genraly the faster you are going to be.
Steering angle sensor...so you can see if your wheel movements are causeing handling issues. Snap the wheel on turn in and the car pushes. Counter steer on the way out, the car is too loose. Wheel movement for no reasone other than you are just too excited. Wheel movement is too fast smashing the car on the bump stops.
Shock pots.. To see when and how hard you are getting on the stops. Yes we all get on the stops it is just how long it takes and how hard.

If you are not studying your data a lot (like making it your passion) it's like being down 6-8 hp. I hear it so many times that the other car has so much more power, when I can clearly see in the data it's the driver not the car. But hey it's much easer to blame the car:) 1.6 vs 99 comes to mind. When I come off track it is one of the first things I do before going out again. Then about 2 hours of studying at the end of the day and 5 hours the flowing week. You can never have too many sensors on your car. On my DSR I am monitoring over 50 Channels. None I would be willing to do without.

Your milage may........
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#24
38bfast

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Master the above and then go to work on race craft. I have watched the faster driver get snookered by the slower just on race craft alone. Might have seen that at the runoffs this year a few times :)
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#25
RussMcB

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<snip>

If you are not comfortable left foot braking it is something you need to work on. It will make you faster.

I'd like help in understanding where someone would get a benefit from LFB (especially at a SE Div track).

 

With past race cars (with dog rings engaging gears), I've used LFB exclusively, because once you leave pit lane you never need to use the clutch.  Therefore, it makes sense to use your left foot for braking and right foot for throttle. 

 

But, I can't think of a corner (in a car that requires the clutch for shifting) where it could lower lap times.

 

Can someone walk me through a corner where LFB will help you get through faster?

 

TIA.


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#26
38bfast

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The best place to use left foot braking is in turns that are just shy of WOT or the ones that need just a tuch of brake. If you have to get your right foot completely off the gas and over to the brake for just a tuch of brake it is very upsetting to the car. Just buy taking your foot of the gas pedal It takes tuning traction away from the rear tires as well as shifts a lot of weight on the fronts. It also pitches the rear end up changing the rear roll center. Then when you go back to WOT the car pitches back again. The other drawback is if you go from WOT to 0 and back to WOT you are unwinding and winding the drivetrain. Using your left foot on the brake you can keep power to the rear wheels while just adding a tuch of brake to add front grip as needed to make the turn. It is far less upsetting to the car. Considerable less pitch fore and aft. Again referring to the bump stops, when you smack the car on them you are going to loose grip. If you ease the car on the stops the tires have a much better chance of maintaing grip.

Short story is it makes the car smoother not as violent on the stops.

Speaking of smooth. We have all heard this time and time again. What it means to you as a driver is keeping the pitch and roll of the car very fluid. Just like in a balliey where one movement flows into another. So should the pitch and roll of the car.

This is a common example of not managing pitch and roll of the car well. The driver is going down the straight heading to a two down shift tight turn. As he gets to the braking zone he slowly gets out of the gas and the starts applying slight pressure to the brakes. The closer he comes to the turn the more pressure he starts applying to the brakes. At turn in he relases the brake very quickly and snaps the wheel into the turn. The drivers response when he comes in is this car does not turn for crap. The reality is he did everything possible not to have any front grip on turn in. Just before turn in the car has all it's weight on the front end, springs compressed on the stops because of full pressure on the brake pedal. Then he quickly releases the pedal to 0 pressure. The front of the car violently pops up transferring the weight off the front end thus now less grip on the front tires. Then to make it even worse he the quickly snaps the wheel into the turn violently rolling the car on the stops now loosing front and rear grip.

So the fix. Trail brake the car in. This allows you to slowly and smoothly allow the front end to rise. Then turn the wheel slowly at first till the car rolls gently on the stops then add more wheel once the car is set.

Your ultimate goal is to keep the roll and pitch of the car as smooth or slow as possible. Don't worry about your hands and feet focus on what the car is doing and your hands and feet will follow.

Ok another thing. The shocks on a cars job is control the speed of the suspension. Thus the speed of the pitch an roll of the car. The SM shocks we are mandated to run are completely incapable of controlling the speed due to the high spring rates we run. Or in other terms they are way under dampened for the task at hand. So as a driver you have to do the job of the shocks and by your inputs control the rate of pitch and roll. This is why SM drivers do so well in other classes. They have the skill to control the car and are not relying on the shocks to do it for them to mask bad driving.
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Ralph Provitz
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#27
Craig Berry

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I raced karts and open wheel for a few years so we left foot braked, but I still practice my touch just while driving my street car daily.

I Always use my left foot on corners that require braking and do Not have downshifts. I will also use this technique on some turns with a downshift, but always when there is not one.

The main benefits for me are more control if I do need to trail brake, but Mainly it has more to do with throttle control than braking. When my right foot is only focused on the throttle pedal I feel I have more control of the throttle, and can be a fraction quicker to WOT.
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#28
Todd Lamb

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Russ - relative to your particular situation, focus on the basics. Left foot braking is a nice advanced skill to have but plenty of drivers win without it. I personally don't left foot brake unless I'm driving a sequential gearbox car.
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#29
Glenn Davis

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For those that drive Summit Point regularly, do you trail brake 3, 4, and 10?  T4 flat out can be done, but I tend to lift a bit so as to not track out too wide getting down to T5.  Todd, I know you drive SP, what is your approach to T3?


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#30
Todd Lamb

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T3 and T10 are both fast corners, and generally speaking in fast corners you do less (or no) trailbraking.

Novice: brake early and light to not upset the car, and apply throttle prior to turn in to keep the back of the car settled. This is the slow in, fast out method and will give decent results.

Intermediate: brake late and short duration, roll speed into the corner, using the off-throttle to rotate the car a bit at turn in, then apply throttle throughout the corner.

Advanced: You can use just a hint of trailbraking while the side load builds up on turn in. The problem with doing this is that the risk/reward is not in your favor unless you are very very good with the brake release. It is very easy to over-rotate the car doing this and go for a wild ride. Done correctly, you'll carry a lot of speed in and will apply maintenance throttle first before eventually getting to full throttle.

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#31
RussMcB

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Russ - relative to your particular situation, focus on the basics. Left foot braking is a nice advanced skill to have but plenty of drivers win without it. I personally don't left foot brake unless I'm driving a sequential gearbox car.

Todd, are you saying exploring more ways to use the brake pedal should not be near the top of my priorities?  :-)

 

I agree, of course. 

 

I really enjoyed LFB in formula cars.  It was easy since the left foot wasn't doing anything anyway.  It definitely gives you a greater feeling of controlling yaw.


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