28 replies to this topic

[Jeff Bailey]

So three boneheads tried to put three Miatas where only two will fit.....I think I was bonehead number one. Three Miatas in turn 1 at Daytona, I was inside with two cars to my right.....none of us boneheads lifted...I guess we all waited to see what would happen... and it did as expected.

I got doored on right side, pushed left, bounced off concrete wall back right and took out both cars on the right. I was able to continue while both other cars sat disabled in the grass. For what it's worth, I'll lift next time...maybe.

So here's the question. I had 1/8 " toe out and now have 3/4" toe out. Left tie rod is bent slightly at threads but I can't find anything else bent. Steering works left and right without any issues.
What would be the most likely suspected bent part ?

Wheels are still true, left fender was crumpled on the tire, and right wheel and fender had rubber marks from other car.

Thanks on advance for helping bonehead #1.

[Jeff Bailey]

Oh, and it's a 1992 Spec Miata....

[Bruce Wilson]

Next I would check the upper control arm long bolt.  loosen the nut a bit and turn the long bolt.  You can visibly see if it is bent as you turn.

 

Pretty much every part on the suspension can bend as well as the sub frame, and depending on how hard you hit, you might need to replace, one, multiple, or all of them. Really the only way to repair is replace everything and re-align, or replace the part(s) most likely to bend and re-align.  We usually stop when we don't see any more visibly bent parts and can get the camber and caster within reasonable limits.  Some folks have developed jigs to determine if parts are bent.  Miatacage.com has some.

[Bench Racer]

Check the control arm ball joints. Search this site, someone did a write up or video on checking ball joints. Dave Wheeler at AdvancedAutoSports 608.313.1230 has front and rear sub-frame checkers.

 

 

Product Image Item Name- Price

Front Subframe Checker

If you are having trouble aligning your front suspension, you may have a bent front subframe. The Advanced Autosports "Front Subframe...

More Info

$19.95

Front+Rear Subframe Checker

Front and Rear Subframe Checker Bundle. Buy this bundle and save $5.00. Click Here for a demonstration of how to use our subframe checker!

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$34.90

 

 

 

Rear Subframe Checker                                                $19.95

If you are having trouble aligning your rear suspension, you may have a bent rear subframe. The Advanced Autosports "Rear Subframe Checker"...

More Info

[davew]

This same conversation comes up every few months. Do a search and you may find the answer.

 

Lets think about the info you have already given us. Toe went to excessive toe out and the tie rod end is bent. Common sense tells me that a bent tie rod will cause toe in, not toe out. So in addition to changing the tie rod you have something else bent. By the way, I always replace the outer tie rod end when the inner gets damaged from contact. All that force went through the outer and may have damaged it.

 

With the car raised up, rub your hands accross the suspension components. This sounds really weird, but close your eyes and rub both sides at the same time. You will amaze yourself that you can feel even small bends. Trust you instincts and replace what feels bent.

 

If you feel a bend in the lower control arm, replace the ball joint also. The studs bend and are difficult to diagnose.

 

loosen the upper control arm inner bolt and spin the bolt. If it is bent, you probably also have a bent upper control arm. Install a straight bolt, if it spins, the upper mount is probably ok

 

Spindles are hard to measure. You need a known good one for comparison.

 

I sell a subframe checker that will quickly tell you if the subframe lower mounts are damaged. See above, Thanks Dave

 

At the track, I swap everything. I simply don't have the time to diagnose multiple times.

 

Also measure camber and caster. Positive change in camber tells me the lower or spindle is bent. Decrease in caster tells me the lower ball joint has moved rearward. Which tells me the lower is bent.

 

You can throw parts at the issue (like I do at the track) or you can use some basic allignment knowledge to diagnose the problem

 

Dave

[Jeff Bailey]

Thanks for all the information guys !

It will be Monday before I can properly check all the parts and pick-up points. I was hoping there was a weak link in the front suspension that is an " always bends" part.

I'll take the advice given and use it to find the bent part or parts....thanks again.

[FTodaro]

 

 

 This sounds really weird, but close your eyes and rub both sides at the same time. You will amaze yourself that you can feel even small bends. Trust you instincts

Dave

Dave this is a reminder, this is not an adult site? keep in mind the young and impressionable read these posts.

[shedguy]

I was bonehead #3. Actuality there was 4 of us boneheads. Bonehead # 4 went off in the runoff area, lucky guy. I knew you were in trouble as bonehead #2 had you pinched down into the wall and you had to go right so I was in the grass about 20 feet when bonehead # 2 came across the track and got me with his wheels lined up with my wheels.
My damage subframe, motor mounts, lower and upper arms , inner tie rod, rear lower arm and bolts and front fender. Bonehead #2 was getting squirreiy, I was trying to give myself room with him and pushing or be pushed by him. If you need anything let me know I may have it sitting around. Your post made me laugh, it's all in good fun. If your not having fun go fishing.

[Jeff Bailey]

Well nice to meet you bonehead #3.... LOL ! I was curious as to the other drivers perspectives and hoping we were all on the same page as to what occurred. I'm not the least bit upset at anyone....Maybe myself for not lifting but hindsight is 20/20. At the time, I thought bonehead #2 would give me room but I'm guessing he didn't know I was there because he doored me pretty hard. When I bounced off the concrete wall, I hit him with my right front in his drivers door, it is the reason he got into you. I am sorry that so much damage happened to your car. I don't blame him because he was probably trying to stay off you when he got into me.

I bought a complete parts car that was hit in the left rear. I should have everything I need. So far, I replaced the LF fender, repaired RF fender, un pancaked the left side, and had the car completely repainted. Hopefully, I didn't hurt the sub-frame.

Thanks for the parts offer and I extend the same to you. Let me know if you need anything I may have....

[Alberto]

+1 to Dave's how to.  Might also want to just consider replacing the whole corner and keeping the old parts as spares.

 

I made a video awhile back about diagnosing a bent ball joint but same applies to tie rods.  Might as well replace both.  It's cheaper to replace those parts while at home rather than find out on the alignment rack.

[JRagaglia]

Jeff,

Check the nut behind the steering wheel. More times than not, it is loose causing wierd things to happen.

Jack

[Jeff Bailey]

Jack, nut won't tighten....always had issues.

[Tom Sager]

I would add that you should check steering rack and inner tie rod ends for damage.  Not that this would cause your toe issue but that any excess lash or slop in the rack is evidence of damage.  Best to check it under load (with the weight of the car on the wheels).  I had one years ago that developed some slop after an incident and we didn't figure that out until after some other stuff was corrected.  

[davew]

ALso, always check motor mounts after any side impact. They break easily.

 

Dave

[Jim Drago]

speaking of bent and Suspension damage.. I lucked out at Sebring, well at least in terms of suspension damage.
 
Bent tie rod front and bent bolt rear..

Just as an example. This brought rear toe from 1/16 in to about 3/8 in. Doesn't look that bent, but doesn't take much
 
 
 

[Ron Alan]

Surprised you got that out in one piece...no way(generally) if bent on the thread side

[Jeff Bailey]

Found it.....

Took entire LF suspension parts off and found the lower control arm bent. It was bent just behind the shock mount. Actually very noticeable once off the car. I checked everything else and found nothing else appearing bent. I still replaced everything with parts off the parts car.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

[Jim Drago]

Surprised you got that out in one piece...no way(generally) if bent on the thread side

I have a pretty nice "persuader"

https://www.google.c...r.html;1200;801

[pat slattery]

I have a pretty nice "persuader"

https://www.google.c...r.html;1200;801

BFH Jim?

[Jim Drago]

Yeah was a joke( picture was a cute blonde with a BFH), But impact and pry bar and it usually comes out. If they are real bad, it is easier to just use a sawzall and take it in three pieces.

Jim