8 replies to this topic

[Butch Kummer]

I'm taking this out of the other discussions regarding the proposed rule changes to reduce clutter in that thread. I also logged off for a few days to think about my reply so I don't get flagged for "inappropriate comments":

As a driver I really want to know when I've started the last lap. If I'm engaged in a serious battle for position it lets me know (1) I need to make my move now or (2) I need to keep this guy behind me for only one more lap. If I'm nursing an ailing vehicle it lets me know I just have to stagger on for one more lap.

As a race organizer I really, REALLY like fixed-time races. It makes developing and maintaining a weekend schedule much easier, and when the inevitable delays occur it penalizes those that caused the delay rather than the subsequent run groups. And as a driver of a fast car I like fixed-time races because (assuming we behave ourselves and there's no FCY) we can usually get more laps than what's allocated in a fixed-length race. Many organizations (including NASA) use fixed-time races and for years the Runoffs had 30-minute races to determine the National Champion in each class. The primary concern of a fixed-time race (other than racing with a bunch of folks that run into each other and/or fall off the track causing a FCY) is knowing when you're starting the last lap, or more specifically when Race Control thinks you're starting the last lap.

Last year at the June Sprints I watched the flag stand to see if/how that was indicated, and it was all over the place. Some starters raised a finger in the air, others pointed it downward, some had a white-gloved hand, others didn't, and some issued no signal at all. I feel so strongly about a CONSISTENT signal that all the 2014 Majors events will have a Tour-provided "1 to Go" sign.

At NOLA I was talking to the head of the Executive Stewards (who is also Chief Steward for the Playboy Cup which uses a waving white) about why the stewards were against using a waving white at Start/Finish. He replied the Execs were in favor and it's always been the CRB that votes it down, so I brought it up again on the next CRB call. They are all in favor of it, so it's now been sent to the BoD for approval.

Advantages:
. Every start station currently has a white flag, so no new materials are needed (or need to be kept up with).
. Every short track in the US and most of the Pro series use it already.
. As I stated before in the other thread, any three year old knows what a "white flag lap" is.
. The signal is visible and would be consistent across all our events.

Perceived negatives:
. Two different meanings for the same flag - We have that now with a standing yellow and a waving yellow, plus a single black flag (which means you) and a black at every station (Black Flag All). If you're coming down the front straight and there's a standing white, be on the look-out for a slow moving vehicle. If it's waving (and OBTW, there's no flag in Turn 1), you're on your last lap.

. Possibility for errors - First of all, the Majors Supps currently say "Where possible, a '1 to Go' sign...". That means it's not mandatory but we'll do everything possible to get it right.

I'd also argue that using the '1 to Go' signal gives Start, T&S, and Race Control more time to get the checker out correctly. If the leader is running 1:45 laps and the leader goes by with 3:30 to go, T&S will say "it's gonna be close!". Race Control will then say "Show the '1 to Go' (or white flag) next time by." The white would then be followed by the checker regardless of the time left (you can checker a race early but not late). Regardless, everyone knows the last lap is starting and the next flag they see will be the checker.

Finally, those same possibilities (for errors) exist regardless of what signal is being used. Was the starter really signaling one to go or what s/he picking their nose?

= = = = = =

All I'm asking for here is a consistent signal at all our races. I monitor a number of websites and it's interesting that this is the only one where the proposal is getting more than a passing comment. That said, if you really believe the potential complications outweigh the advantages, then by all means urge your Area Director to vote it down.

See y'all at the track...

[Danny Steyn]

Butch

 

Personally I want to know when the last lap is. A waving white flag from the starters stand is just perfect by me.NASA does it too and it does the job. 

 

And if you wouldn't mind, while you are crafting the language for the GCR to allow the waving last lap white flag, please make sure you add some STRONG language that states they may ONLY wave it for one lap - not like COTA or like NASA Road Atlanta this past weekend. If they put it out and wave it to the leader, then the next lap by MUST BE THE CHECKER. To then wave the white flag again because timing and scoring or the starter had a change of mind is not the way to instill trust in the white flag - just saying:-) 

[wheel]

I agree.  Racing without a crew, the checker is often a surprise.  It is even worse with the increasing number of races based on time rather than laps.  Lap counter doesn't do much good on a timed race.  We have been the only racing in the world that doesn't use a white flag to signify last lap.  About time, in my opinion.  And, I agree with Danny.  You get the white flag, next time by it had better be a checker.

wheel

[davew]

Just so everybody understands, I am not against this in theory. I am against it in practical application for our purposes.

 

1- If you see the white, you have to get the green next time. What if the white is shown wrong?

2- If you don't get a white, for whatever reason, can you protest? If it becomes a rule, I think you can.

3- waving vs stationary yellow mean the same thing, just different degrees of danger. Stationary white means slow moving vehicle, waving white means last lap. Two totally different meanings for the same flag. Is the wind blowing a stationary flag? Confusion is possible.

4- What if there is a slow moving vehicle at the start of the last lap? How do you signify both waving and stationary?

5- Other sanctioning bodies may do white=last lap, but do they also do local yellows or stationary white as slow moving vehicle?

6- We do timed races every weekend in MC. We use a minute counter. In a 30 minute race you usually see 30-20-10-5-4-3-2-1 Checkered flag. When we do a lap race, we use the same counter in about the same method.

7- If part of the reasoning for a white flag is cost, how about a furled checkered flag? As an unofficial signal. No cost involved,no confusing the meaning, easy for the starters to switch when a pack of cars is in front of the leader.

8- We have enough trouble getting the end of the race right, don't add more confusion to the mix.

 

Off my soap box

Dave

[Tom Sager]

How about adding a new flag to the collection which would eliminate confusion between one-to-go white and safety vehicle white?

[NPiekarski]

How about implementing how the motorcycle guys do it. White flag is only shown at the start/finsh tower for last lap indication, and for emergency vehicles, using the medical flag ( white with a Red Cross). No dual purpose flags.

[Glenn Davis]

How about implementing how the motorcycle guys do it. White flag is only shown at the start/finsh tower for last lap indication, and for emergency vehicles, using the medical flag ( white with a Red Cross). No dual purpose flags.

I like this idea.  It works for the moto guys.  As for a protest, just write the rule such that the starter "may" indicate the last lap by display of a white flag at the start/finish line.  For cases when the white flag is displayed, the race will end when the leader next crosses the start/finish line, regardless of total time.  I have a hard time believing that the flags would be a cost driver.  I could go with a furled checker as well, but it would need to carry the same caveats.

[TEAM MEDICARE]

White flag with clearly defined rules (is it the last lap or not?) GREAT.   

 

  Please, no green, white, checkered

[Forrest Landy]

I know the playboy cup at least partially does it because they follow international flagging rules. I think this makes it a little easier when they are working with imsa as the rules are uniform. I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing if the scca moved towards international rules. But in my experience the scca's rules are safer and clearer for emergencies and for rookies to understand.