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SCCA seat slider rules just changed again

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#1
dtfastbear

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Someone just called my attention to a clarification in the current Fastrak. They've changed the wording of a critical sentence and have now made ALL seat sliders illegal without a back brace. This means that since no FIA seats are actually tested with a back brace in place, they've essentially made all FIA seats on sliders illegal if mounted as designed. *sigh*

I was looking forward to doing more SCCA racing this year, but unfortunately I don't own a compliant car nor am I willing to de-safety my car by installing a metal seat with a back brace.

Oh well.

Cheers,

Dean

Edit - I think the RaceTech FIA seats are tested with a specific back brace in place.
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#2
Mike Collins

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I know fast track came out today. Can you point me towards the new wording?
Mike "MEATHEAD" Collins
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#3
davecarama

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I know fast track came out today. Can you point me towards the new wording?


I am getting a seat installed on MONDAY, can't afford to get it done twice.

Meat, since you are the local ninja, can I look to you for consulting? Piper is top notch... I know they will do a great job, but as I mentioned... I can't afford to do it 2x.

D
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#4
dtfastbear

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Page 6 of Fastrack.

#4176 (CRB) Clarify 9.3.41
Clarify 9.3.41 as follows: “Seats with a back not attached to the main roll hoop or its cross bracing may be mounted on runners only if they were part of the FIA homologated seat assembly specified in an FIA homologated race car.”

That's the new wording.

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#5
Johnny D

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Dean, your using the sliders so both you and Laura can use the car, correct?

Can you mount the seat for you and make an insert for her?
J~
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#6
Mike Collins

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OK, so I am going to need to make some calls on this. Good thing I am a very fast reader. I just read ALL of the FIA stuff on the specifications they reference. I read all about what seats are FIA certified, I read how they conduct the test. Not one mention in ANY of the referenced FIA specifications list with what base or how the seat was tested.

So I went to the Sparco website. Sparoc sells AND RECOMMENDS an adjustable base for there seats. Sparco sells 4 different mounting solutions, NONE OF THEM have FIA tags.

So how exactly are we supposed to figure this out? Mind you I am on the SMAC and have a National Tech License and I don't even understand it.

Calls to so called people in the know happening now.
Mike "MEATHEAD" Collins
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#7
dtfastbear

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Thanks, Mike! If it helps at all, here are the letters that I wrote to the CRB some time ago as they were trying to get these rules passed:

I am writing in response to the newly proposed rule in the August Fastrack regarding FIA seat mounting.I have questions/issues for your consideration for the two somewhat distinct assertions in the proposed rule.

First:
Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No. 12 or No. 40 (lateral, lower, floor, back, etc).In accordance with the FIA standards, the seat supports (brackets) must be those used when the seat was tested forhomologation."I agree 100% that the same TYPE of mount used for testing (lateral, lower, floor, back, etc.) must be used.

This is a very good rule to retain. However, to specify that the brackets "must be those used when the seat was tested for homologation," will lead to some enforcement problems, I'm afraid. First, the *specific* brackets used by the manufacturer for the FIA homologation are NOT
recorded as part of the homologation. So, I don't know what a tech steward would use a reference to enforce this rule.

Second, manufacturers do not, in my experience and to the best of my knowledge, stamp manufacturer names or part numbers onto their mounting brackets. So, even if the specific bracket was recorded in the homologation records, I do not know how a tech steward would verify that the brackets installed on a given car are indeed those used in the test. For example, if I put RECARO stickers on some Sparco brackets, would ANY tech steward be able to verify who manufactured them?

Third, seat manufacturers often sell several different seat mounting brackets for the same seat (e.g. Recaro offers both steel and alloy side mounts) yet no where does it state that the seat was homologated with both brackets.So, my proposal is that you either keep the rule as it is currently written (just specifying the type of support) and either a) state that the mount must be from the SEAT MANUFACTURER and put the burden of proof on the competitor or B) specify some minimum thickness of steel for the brackets. However, I do not believe the new rule as proposed could be practically enforced.

For the second part of the proposed rule:"Unless supporting evidence is provided by the manufacturer of a series produced car that shows FIA safetycage testing for homologation included an adjustable seat mount, seats and their supports must be attached to a fixed mounting structure.”I'm confused by this proposed rule. Is this a rule about "series produced cars" in particular? And what is a "series produced car." I did not find that defined in the GCR. Does the rule pertain ONLY to cars for which an FIA cage homologation was sought? I'm worried that the INTENT of this rule and how it might be interpreted is that no adjustable seat mounts are permitted unless the SEAT homologation testing was performed with an adjustable seat mount. Is the intent to outlaw sliding seat mounts? If the intent is just to address an issue with cars which have an FIA cage homologation, then I'd suggest rewording the rule to say, "For series produced cars which have undergone FIA safety cage homologation, fixed seat mounts are required unless... [evidence is provided]" This would make it clear that this rule is not applicable to any other race car other than those with FIA homologated cages. If the intent is to outlaw sliding seat mounts in all race cars, then I have two issues. First, the proposed rule is completely inappropriate and confusing as written. It should make no reference to series produced cars or FIA safetycage testing. Second, sliding seat mounts are nearly a practical necessity for many club racers who share cars. Third, the competition seat manufacturers design and sell competition sliding mounts for exactly this reason. I called Recaro, and someone from their tech department said he'd have to check with the guys in Germany if they could provide evidence of the sliders being used in homologation testing. He did go on to say that they use their own sliding seat mounts in their Patron GT3 Cup cars and all of their ALMS cars. That's just food for thought. Another thing to consider - my wife, who is only 5' 2" has to have the seat quite far forward in order to reach the pedals and the steering wheel. With a head containment seat, she would not be able to enter or exit the driver's window quickly (or at all?) unless she could
slide her seat back to get the head restraint out of the way.

Thanks for you consideration on these matters. I'm glad to see you all taking safety and seat mounting very seriously. I do ask that you carefully consider the implications of how any additional rules are written and interpreted.
Respectfully,Dean Thomas
San Francisco Region

letter number #2441
---------------------------------------------------

Title: Require seat back braces for all seats
Category: GCR
Class: GCR
Car: none
Request: I noticed in the latest Fastrak that there is a proposed rule for requiring seat back braces for ALL seats, including FIA approved seats.

I am strongly opposed to requiring seat back braces for FIA approved seats. The FIA seat homologation and testing is not performed with back braces in place, so therefore there is NO TESTING DATA to show that these seats are safer (or even safe) with a back brace in place. FIA testing methods are performed on a "free" seat that is either side or bottom mounted, as recommended by the manufacturer. The seats are therefore free to flex and absorb energy as they flex on their mountings. To mandate that seats be installed in a manner inconsistent with the manufacturer's recommendation and certification testing is not a move towards improved safety.

Crash safety testing often shows that what *really* happens in a crash is often surprising and quite different from what one might expect to happen by just eye-balling a design. Making the assumption that back braces will increase the safety of an FIA seat without test data to prove it is inappropriate in my opinon.

Thanks for your consideration.

Dean Thomas

letter number #1438

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#8
dtfastbear

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Johnny,

We've been-there-done-that with seat inserts. Our difference in height is great enough that it requires a very thick insert for Laura, putting her head outside of the useful range of the head restraints. It also is not practical to create an insert that extends all the way up behind her head, which leaves the back of her helmet too far from the seat back. In a rear-end collision, she could get whiplash without support behind her head.

Yes, there are alternatives that I *could* pursue if racing with the SCCA was that important to me. So, in that regard, I'm just being a whiny little b*tch. But, I feel strongly that the new rules are not making anyone safer, but rather are incenting people to find work-arounds that will be less safe. That's why I'm upset about the rule change.

At this point, I'm not really driving the spec miata any more, so I could fix the seat for Laura. But, as I point out in the first letter above, not being able to slide the seat back for entry/egress makes the car less safe IMHO.

Cheers,

Dean

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#9
Johnny D

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Got it. Your points are valid, Sorry.
No 10 sec. egress rule in SCCA.

Adjustable / Extentions foot pedals?
J~
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#10
Mike Collins

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So I called a CRB member who was very helpful. If it is an FIA seat it will need to mounted with an FIA mount, typically the one provided by the same manufacturer as your seat. If your seat is on sliders it will need a back brace as there are no FIA sliders.
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#11
dtfastbear

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Understood. That's how I read it, too.

I assume that the folks introducing these changes feel that sliders (not just STOCK sliders, but also the sliders sold by the seat manufactures specifically for mounting FIA race seats in race cars) cannot be trusted to be a "solid mount" in the event of a rear collision. That's the only logical conclusion to draw from the writing of the rule. So let me ask a question... Do those folks believe that a seat with the "back attached to the main hoop or its cross bracing" will be safe in a rearward collision when the sliders let go and the only thing keeping 200lbs of driver from slamming rearward into the main hoop is a single metal bar pointed at the middle of the driver's back? Think through that scenario... Remember, sliders ARE still legal as long as there is a back brace that meets the minimum requirements in place. If they can't be trusted, they can't be trusted.

IMHO, this just points to someone making up these rules as they go based on some general ideas that "sliders aren't safe" or "FIA seats need more mounting restrictions". Apparently, no one has really thought through these scenarios to come up with a comprehensive set of mounting rules that are enforceable and safe.

I respectfully suggest that there should be a higher bar for the scrutiny of changes to safety requirements than the scrutiny of class rules regarding performance and competition.

Cheers,

Dean

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#12
davecarama

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The page for the slider at OG Racing says:
Overview - Universal slider kit. Double locking. FIA homologated. Fits all bottom mounting Sparco seats or use in conjunction with a Sparco side-mount bracket.
Sparco Seat Slide Mount Kit


I found it on the internet, so it has to be correct, right?
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#13
Johnny D

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We had the conversation last year and it opened up a whole can of worm.

http://forum.specmia...31;t=000228;p=0

Like if you have a FIA Kevlar/Carbon Fibre seat...
Are you drilling into it for a back brace for which it wasn't originally designed for.
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#14
Mike Collins

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If the slider has a visible fia tag on it you can use it.
Mike "MEATHEAD" Collins
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#15
Johnny D

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I'm good.
J~
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#16
wheel

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So, back a bit the guys running FIA seats said, "we don't want to ruin our good seats by attaching a back brace. It will compromise the seat, etc." So, fine, you don't have to use a back brace, but you have to use a floor mount that is designed to work with the seat (slider, or not). I'm sure you can imagine a nice FIA seat mounted on a P.O.S. slider that was so loose you could move the back of the seat several inches in all directions. That is some of what is out there. Now you have the choice. Mount the seat with a back brace, or mount the seat with the proper floor mount, designed to work with that seat.
wheel

#17
davecarama

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Sparco's comp parts catalogue has some interesting info on the FIA testing (complete with photos and illustrations)
Sparco 2011 Catalogue



Pages 84 & 85
Here's a quote:

"The seat has to be able to alter it's shape, because this is the only way to absorb the crash resulting energy, without making breaks which could injure the occupant. Moreover the deformation has to be controlled and not random: a seat which is stiff in its center line, but weak in the containment areas of head and shoulders, won't be able to guarantee a correct driver containment. Therefore our seat has a controlled deformation: the whole seat will deform itself during a crash, being able of guarantee a correct driver containment.
Moreover the pressure of absorbing-material in correspondence to head and shoulder and pelvis area helps the seat to dissipate the crash energy. ..."


The sentence before that one talks about the side impact and the deformation of the seat absorbing the energy as opposed to a rigid seat transferring the energy to the driver.

"The third and last test, the drfined crush test, simulates the crash between drivers and co-drivers seats. Our seat is able to absorb more than 1200J. If the seat was too stiff, this energy would be absorbed by the driver."


In my opinion, having that technology, and locking down the seat in an area where it A) wasn't made to be drilled or B ) causes the seat to stress and no longer deform as intended; could cause the accident energy to be transfered to the driver, and/or the seat to be stressed, causing malfunction, which could injure the driver.

I called OG to ask them about the statement on their web site about the Sparco slider being FIA Homologated. I was told that "when the FIA tests a manufacturer's seats, they test the seats and all available mounting equipment from that manufacturer. The FIA stamp on the seat covers the seat as well as the associated mounting equipment available from that manufacturer for that seat. The stamp, shows up on the seat, not the hardware."

Mike's statement that if it has a stamp you can use it makes me wonder, The sliders, being about 1/2 an inch high, really have no room for a stamp. Also, the static mounting hardware also doesn't have a stamp on them, so how do you enforce even the static mounting?

OG said they would contact Sparco for me this afternoon and see if there is anything that states that the available Sparco slider is indeed FIA. But based on what I heard from the shop, we Sparco users should be OK.

Dave
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#18
dtfastbear

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Wheel,

I'd agree with you if I thought what you are saying was possible. I'll be VERY happy to be proven wrong, here, but there are a couple facts that I can't get by.

First: Mike, while I appreciate you saying "if your sliders have an FIA tag, you're OK", but that is NOT what the rule says. So, do I have to comply with the rule or not? The rule says "only if they were part of the FIA homologated seat assembly specified in an FIA homologated race car". Spec miatas are not an FIA homologated race car, so no sliders without back braces.

Second: There's no FIA homologation standard for sliders. Period. Here's the list of homologation standards. http://www.fia.com/s.../standregs.html
If you read the full standard(s) for seats, you'll see that only the new 8862-2009 standard has any allowance to actually extend the Homologation certification for a given seat to the mounting brackets, but that is only for the brackets that connect DIRECTLY to the seat. As I read it, sliders wouldn't fall in to this category.

For the Sparco sliders referenced above, on Sparco's own website, there's no indication that they are "certified" in any way by the FIA. I don't know if I'm totally wrong on point number 2 above or if Sparco just forgot to provide that information.

The Appendix J of the FIA Sporting Regulations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/4966A4958DE27931C1257802003ADAA7/$FILE/253_2011.pdf) does make an allowance for seat sliders "provided with the seat" by the manufacturer. This is EXACTLY what I think the SCCA rule should say and it's what I suggested. But it's not what we got. :(

If there are sliders with an FIA tag that I can buy and tech inspectors are willing to overlook the wording of the rule as written, then I guess I can pass tech.

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#19
dtfastbear

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Thanks, Dave! Very useful information and you beat me to calling OG. We were responding at the exact same time.

However, what OG is saying doesn't actually match what the FIA homologation standards themselves say. And, it also doesn't fit within the extremely narrow allowance of the new SCCA rule as written.

Like I said above, if SCCA tech inspectors are willing to interpret the rule as to allow seat manufacturer supplied sliders without braces, that would be great. I just don't understand why the rule can't be written that way if that's the way it is going to be enforced.

Looking forward to hearing Sparco's input!

Cheers,

Dean

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#20
davecarama

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Actually, I can't find anything in the FIA that talks about mounting, besides the seat back brace being checked for damage by the impact. The FIA Homoligation testing is for the seat, and if the seat passes the test, no mention of the mounting bracket used... but I did do that reading last night... I could have missed that portion... I was tired.

If what OG racing says is true, than any mounting hardware scenario made available by the manufacturer is part of that testing process, because they could be part of any mounting scenario in their client's cars.

Wouldn't it be funny if they ONLY tested with the slider attached? Then all those who DON't have a slider are not FIA! hahaha! What can of worms are we opening anyway! Make it all stop!
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