34 replies to this topic

[Brandon]

Calling all Holy Warriors!  Time for a brake pad material crusade!

 

What is the general consensus on buying pre-bedded pads (Hawk, EBC, PFC, Carbotech...I think they all offer pre-bedded SKUs) and installing them on new rotors?

Do you still need to bed during the out-lap or first lap of a qualifying session?  Should you?

 

Are people getting reasonable rotor life (reasonable meaning multiple weekends before heat cracks start appearing) w/o a bedding procedure for them?

 

I've always been a fan of registering for a test day and using the first session to get things square on the braking front but if I don't need to waste that session by purchasing pre-bedded pads (even w/new rotors) all the better.

 

Thoughts/Opinions/Rants?  

[Michael Novak]

MY opinion...

 

I used to do all of the bedding -and the rest on practice day....  At this point..   I install------- Drive around the paddock once lightly applying the brakes(really to make sure everything is in correctly) and then go out like every other time..  Race/Qualifying/Practice doesn't matter...  I have done this with Carbotechs and PFC pads..  

 

Don't spend for the bedded pads and I don't think the first cycle thing matters on our cars either at this point....

[Bench Racer]

On my new build 1990 there are Brembo rotors and non bedded Carbotechs pads. I bedded draging pedal and off an on pedal off track. Pads continue to look great, zero hair lines or gouges in rotors and have a spare new set of prebedded Carbotechs which will be used with zero bedding.
My buddy races a pointy end F production Miata, PFC? pads, new rotors as required and never spends a dime bedding. His recreational account is a bit stronger than mine. 

[ChrisA]

PFCs don't require bedding. Loved the PFC 06s, but the are discontinued now. I still have one new set left in my track box. Not sure what there replacement pad is, I think it's either the 11s or 12s. Rotors are cheaper than pads so I don't worry about their life as much as the pads.

[davew]

ALL BRAKE PADS MUST BE BEDDED

 

Bedding brake pads does several things.

 

Removes a layer of "glue" from the friction material so the actual brake material is in full contact with the rotor.

Transfers a layer of brake material onto the rotor. This is why rotors should be bedded also.

Mates any imperfections between the sorta flat pad surface to the sorta flat rotor surface.

 

Only the first item can be handled by a machine at a far away factory.

 

My method:

Brake early and soft, getting to normal turn in speed. Drag the brakes on long straights to keep them warm. You should smell the pads. Once the smell stops, then test the pads by stopping normally, yet early enough to give yourself some OH CRAP room. If they feel good, go at it hard. Usually takes 2-3 laps depending upon track and conditions.

 

Dave

[Tom Sager]

I've had what I consider remarkably good brake performance with Cobalt pads on newly machined rotors (or new rotors) with nothing more than paddock or a pace lap or a couple moderate practice laps for bed-in. 

[ChrisA]

Well, I used to use Carbotech and they really stressed the importance of following their bedding process. When I switched to PFC they told me the pads, themselves, didn't need the bedding but rotors did. If the rotors haven't been run with the pads, than starting with an easy lap of light braking, followed by gradually increasing braking up to normal would be best practice. If I had previously run their pads on those rotors than, I could just throw in new pads and go, they were "race ready".  Now, some of this may have changed as the companies have changed/modified compounds,--  don't know.

[Todd Lamb]

Not all pads need bedded. The Cobalts off the shelf don't need bedded.

 

I bedded a brand new set of Hawks on the pace lap at Road America for June Sprints on Sunday. No issues.

 

On heavier cars it is pretty critical, but on the SM's it doesn't seem to be too much of an issue to bed on the out lap or pace lap as long as you get to the point where they heat up and you feel them lose a bit of grip (outgassing) and let them cool a bit before lap 1.

 

YMMV

[Brandon]

Okay, perhaps my opening salvo wasn't clear enough:

 

I know pads need to be bedded and with new rotors it's best to do them as well.

This means there is a market for pre-bedded pads but it sounds like that might not be the best choice when offered.

 

I was hoping to get some confirmation that going with pre-bedded pads and new rotors wouldn't result in severely prematurely wearing the rotors or experiencing issues with the out-lap if I decided to go that route.

 

Anyway....thanks for the feedback.  Guess I'll keep my plan of running the first session of the test day to bed pads & rotors!

[Jamz14]

The issue isn't wear of the rotor with no bedding. The issue is warping of the rotor with no bedding. Now maybe some have found that they can do some sort of less than reccomended bedding and they have never experienced a problem with warped rotors. But on road cars, I used to have many problems with warped new rotors until I started bedding all pads and rotors. Now, I have never experienced warped rotors on either road cars or the race car.

 

Bed your pads and rotors. Why take a chance on buying "prebedded" pads? Whats to gain? Of course if you have to replace pads and dont have time or space to bed you will take the track and might be just fine. We all make those choices in going out less than optimum at times. But on a program basis, why would you not bed the pads and take that risk? It is kinda like my reccomendation on buying a particular year car. Some say that the 1.6 and NA 1.8 are on par with the 99+ cars. But all say that the 99+ is the car to have. So why would you take the chance that what SOME say is true when you can go with what all say is true or good? Anyone here saying that you shouldn't bed your pads?

[Brandon]

Jamz,

Some noted they have not bedded and were fine but it was dependent upon the brand of pad.

Others have noted the manufacturer was quite emphatic about bedding both the pad & rotor.

 

While none stated explicitly to "not bed the rotors if you have pre-bedded pads" I've been around long enough to read between the lines and it being up to myself on flushing the first test session of the day to bed pads/HC new tires.

 

Anyway - off to finalize my prep list and get things rolling on that activity...

Brandon

[Jamz14]

Sounds good to me Brandon!

 

I pointed out a safe and for sure path. My point of view doesn't put me at odds with either wheeler or lamb.

[davew]

bedding pads or rotors takes 2 laps, not exactly flushing the first test session 

 

Dave

[Brian Linn]

I've used Carbotech's pre-bedded pads on my FP Miata and been happy with them.   I've trusted the pre-bedding and not "wasted" any track time bedding them in.    They seem to have good life span.   

 

from Carbotech's website    http://ctbrakes.com/faqs.asp#bedding2

 

Proper bedding instructions for AX-Series & XP-Series Compounds :

1. All new brake pads require a bedding process, start this process by pumping your brakes a few times to assure proper installation. Once on track perform several moderate (medium) near stops (to a very slow rolling speed) to thoroughly warm up the pads and rotors. This should take 1-2 laps. This allows a thin layer of the pad material to be transferred into the micro-grooves of the rotor.
2. After the pads/rotors are warm, perform a series of hard near stops (to a slow rolling speed) until some brake fade is felt. This process should take about 2-4 laps (depending on the track). Once this occurs, then stay off the brakes (as much as possible) and bring your car into the pits/paddock to completely cool. Do not lock the tires during this operation.
3. Allow brake pads and/or rotors cool down to ambient temperatures; no less than 30 minutes. The total bedding procedure should not take more than 5-6 laps or about 10-15 minutes.

NOTE: The proper way to bed your brake pads and brake discs (rotors) is to bed them on the racetrack, NOT on the street (excluding the Bobcat 1521 compound).

Warning: Failure to properly bed in your pads could lead to friction material to chunk and break up resulting in poor pad performance and pad life. Improper bedding can also lead to overheating your pads and causing them to glaze over resulting in the car not being able to stop or slow properly.

[RacerX]

This sounds like a great topic for another Webinar with an expert from one of the major brands.

 

I would think they would be happy to have an eager audience to promote their product with, especially a large SM crowd.

 

R1chy

[Keith Novak]

bedding pads or rotors takes 2 laps, not exactly flushing the first test session 

 

Dave

Both Hawk DTC and Carbotech mfg directions say to let cool after bedding rather than the initial braking and then go for it.  I've personally done it both ways and haven't seen a difference.  Are you saying that allowing them to cool is not beneficial?

[Brandon]

This sounds like a great topic for another Webinar with an expert from one of the major brands.

 

I would think they would be happy to have an eager audience to promote their product with, especially a large SM crowd.

 

R1chy

 

Anyone have contacts with the various options for such a discussion?

[Mark McCallister]

Slight tangent, somehow I managed to glaze a set of DTC-30/60s during an apparently too long (or maybe too light/long applications) bedding session at Daytona.  I've done a couple sets before that without any problem.  I suspected I just did too many laps with too long or light application without cooling, although the brake zones at Daytona are few and far between.  There were silvery splotches on the pads that I was able to mostly but not completely sandpaper out - those pads were never the same after that.  I decided to try a set of Cobalts and was amazed at how they really do work right out of the box at turn 1 lap 1...

[Danny Steyn]

I used to run with Cobalts but have recently switched to Carbotechs, as the Cobalt pads would always break apart when they got to the rivets (around 50% of pad thickness). With both brands I have often bedded pads and new rotors on the outlap of a race with no issues. I just  start dragging the brake from the moment I leave the grid and then progressively do harder and harder brake applications throughout the pace lap. I have never had an issue with the brakes bedded in that way. However YMMV

[Brian Linn]

I used to run with Cobalts but have recently switched to Carbotechs...I have often bedded pads and new rotors on the outlap of a race with no issues. I just  start dragging the brake from the moment I leave the grid and then progressively do harder and harder brake applications throughout the pace lap. I have never had an issue with the brakes bedded in that way. However YMMV

Danny-

Do you run pre-bedded brakes?  I was under the impression that part of the bedding process was to let them cool off after the initial heat cycle. 

 

Brian