21 replies to this topic

[HLF]

I was driving the car to get the cage welded in and after 15 miles (less than 20 miles after the engine swap). The motor sounds like this: 

 

I took the valve cover off, thinking the timing belt slipped, but its the same as it was before. Any thought before I take it to a shop for diagnosis?

 

-Kyle

[Alberto]

Sounds like HLA noise. 

[HLF]

I just googled that and found a couple of videos and the sound is the same! 

 

Does this mean I need to have the head rebuilt?

[Tom Sager]

I just googled that and found a couple of videos and the sound is the same! 

 

Does this mean I need to have the head rebuilt?

If it's HLA noise it sounds like you have several that are losing pressure.  Sometimes they will restore pressure after running for a while (10 minutes at warm temp).  Having 1 or 2 go tickity tick from time to time after restarting the car is normal I believe but again yours sounds like a whole bunch have bled down. They do need replacement once in a while or a good cleaning.  Hard to be sure from the audio.  Could be something else.  

[Keith Novak]

Do not run that engine again IMHO until you have done some inspection inside the head. That engine sounds like it is self destructing.  I had one that sounded like that and a piece of debris found itself between a cam and cam journal.  It was not savable.  Since there is something very obviously not right, limit the damage to what's done now.

[Ron Alan]

There is another recent video on here (Alberto)that sounds the same...maybe worse(diesel truck!) His issue went away with the correct oil. BUT...The price for the HLA's is all over the place. Range from $6ebay to $40 from Mazda. Have seen all price ranges of aftermarket fail(break apart)immediately! Your engine builder should want to replace the bad one or ones no problem...assuming it is new!  

[HLF]

Thanks guys. I am going to weld the cage in and then drop it off at Gas Head. Hopefully by Friday. 

[Bench Racer]

Kyle, is this the first time the motor made this noise since you installed? Can whoever you bought the motor from provide a little back ground to your noise, history?

[HLF]

Bench,

 

I doubt it. I bought the motor through Jim Drago. It had tags talking about a warranty on it (if installed by pros, which it was) and I cannot find them anywhere.

 

I am hoping its only an HLA noise and that the local SM shop will have the same diagnosis and that all it needs are the lifters cleaned. I was tempted to try an engine flush but I watched a couple videos and that stuff does not appear to be effective. 

[Jim Drago]

That engine has been on the shelf for literally years as we sourced a really low mileage engine, How long was it run? You may need to run it awhile before the lifters quiet down.. keep me posted

Jim

[HLF]

Jim,

 

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep y'all updated. 

 

After having the engine installed (April-May) I trailered it back home to make it street legal (since its DE and AutoX for now). I drove it up and down the block every 4-5 days for about 2 months. Total of 5-6 miles. Monday I drove it to my dads place 30 miles away (he has big welder) and half way there there it started. I thought it was tire are first but after coming to a stop I noticed it sounded just like loose rocker arms. I parked at my dads and recorded the video before turing it off. 

[Ron Alan]

I still say its one or more broken HLA's. If it was just a matter of not pumping up it would have sounded like this from the beginning. If in fact this is the case...there really is no damage more than likely. When the lash jumps to infinity(big gap rather than staying in constant contact with the cam) the cam lobes slap the HLA'S and create a racket.

[Alberto]

As Ron mentioned, my cheapo ebay sourced lifters were really noisy on initial startup.  I was using Shell dino diesel 15w/40.  After changing the oil to a Miata friendly brand and weight, the noise went away.  I do still have one or two lifters that drain down after the car has sat for a few days.  I think one of them is actually the $20 brand name one that I sourced from the local O'Rielly's auto parts since one of the ebay lifters failed the test in the FSM. That lifter continues to make noise until I flog the car on track.  After that, they are all happily quiet for a while.

[Bruce Wilson]

Dammit, I was sure I had posted my manifesto on restoring lifters, but I think it was one of those posts I lost when using the back button

 

Anyway, I learned this from Matt Schultz, (NASA National Champ) and it works very well.  Soak old stock lifters in solvent for a few days, then individually place the lifter in a shallow pan of solvent and start working the pump with your thumb.  If the lifter feels solid, it's stuck so discard and replace with another used lifter.  (I had a few engines worth).  After practice, you'll actually see the solvent fluid pumping out the side hole when pumping.  I was very meticulous in this process and in the end I was confident I could tell a healthy lifter just by feel and visual pumping action in the solvent.  End result was fantastic.  Car started and purred with a quiet valve train and I don't even get that periodic lifter noise after a race.  Be sure to pump all the solvent out when your done and use compressed air to dry.

[HLF]

This sounds like a simple fix.... Take it to a pro, pay the bill, drive it home. Am I missing anything?

 

In all seriousness, I really appreciate all this input/advice/recommendations. After a few days of research, I am confident I could do this, but my schedule is tight the next couple of weeks, and frankly asking my wife to move her car out of the garage again would surely put me on her "Most wanted" list. 

 

-Kyle

[Alberto]

This sounds like a simple fix.... Take it to a pro, pay the bill, drive it home. Am I missing anything?

 

In all seriousness, I really appreciate all this input/advice/recommendations. After a few days of research, I am confident I could do this, but my schedule is tight the next couple of weeks

 

-Kyle

 

That is a workable option.  Just make sure your pro knows what he's doing.  Hopefully it is a SM shop and they are familiar with this and can get you in/out quickly and w/o a padded bill.

 

you basically have to remove the valve cover, camshaft sprockets (to replace the cam seals) and cams to get to the HLAs.  Then you just pull them out with your fingers and plop the new ones back in.  Soak the new ones in an oil bath the day before so they start out filled with oil or they'll make a lot of noise like you have now.  Good time to do the timing belt "while you are in there" but not always necessary.  Replacing the CAS o-ring is a good idea.

 

The procedure that Bruce referred to may be the same one on Miata.net's garage section: http://www.miata.net...rageengine.html

It's time consuming but has worked for people. 

 

 

Good luck

[chris haldeman]

Gas head Motorworks is a very good place too take it. Clint the owner is a top notch service provider.

[HLF]

The timing belt, water pump, and timing belt pulleys are new. They were replaced during the engine swap. 

 

Yes, I am taking it to Gas Head. Clint did a great job installing the engine. Best part is I showed up with a ton of parts in a truck bed and had it working in a know time. 

[Dennis]

The two times I had noisy lifters on rebuilt head that wouldn't shut up, I followed the procedure in Mazda manual:

 

"Run engine 2000-3000 rpm for up to 10 minutes. If noise stops HLA is normal, if not, replace HLA."

 

That worked for me both times. I assume you have good oil pressure?

 

Dennis

[Bruce Wilson]

 

The procedure that Bruce referred to may be the same one on Miata.net's garage section: http://www.miata.net...rageengine.html

It's time consuming but has worked for people. 

 

 

Actually my (Matt's) procedure doesn't involve taking the lifter apart.  We're both cheapskates with a few motors lying around.  I just tossed the ones that were stuck rather than take apart and revive.  I'm not inclined to do so mechanically or otherwise, so I just cleaned and used the ones that were good.  it was worth the $640 savings. As a consultant, I measure these things in $/hr opportunity cost and this one was a no-brainer for a few hours of work.