16 replies to this topic

[manthony121]

I'll be taking the SCCA driver's school in about a week, and I'm sure this type of stuff will be covered. BUT. I have been wondering about when a driver should yield the racing line when being passed. For example:

 

Turn 1 at Watkins Glen is a 90 degree right hand turn at the end of a straight. Suppose I am coming down the straight, at the left edge of the pavement, and someone is coming up on my right. At the turn in, his nose is at the midpoint of my car. When I turn, does he expect to stay side-by-side through the turn? Do I plan to go wide at the apex, leaving him room? If I follow the normal line, is it his responsibility to back off and follow me through the turn? If I follow the line, and he doesn't back off, and I wind up bumping into him at the apex, am I at fault?  Would that be counted as "avoidable contact"?  What would most likely happen: he drives off the inside of the apex, or I get spun when he pushes my rear end out of the way?

 

Clearly, if his nose is just at my rear wheel at turn in, he would be expected to back off and follow me. Also, if we are neck-and-neck at turn in, I would expect to stay wide at the apex. Is there some point along the length of the car where the right-of-way changes? Does it make a difference if the inside car is passing, versus being passed? Does it matter how fast the passing car is gaining?

 

If he winds up half a car length ahead coming out of the turn, would I expect him to go all the way to the outside edge of the track at track out? It seems like it would be easy for me to perform an accidental PIT maneuver on him if he came all the way over, and I wound up nudging his tail because I didn't slow down enough to let him complete the pass before tracking out.

 

BTW, if any of you are going to be at the Last Chance Regional race at WGI next week, I'll be driving the #91 Flatout Miata. You've been warned!

[Johnny D]

I short, it's in the SCCA rule book. NASA rules are a little different but very close.

You should read the book before you go to school. If they didn't tell you that already.

You learn ^^^ and what a red flag means, safety for you and your car, everything you need to race.

J~

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Its common sense... If you have common sense you will be fine.

If you make the turn and your in the right and you have a smashed up car or two then you didn't use common sense.

It takes time racing with other guys to understand what they will do and when. That is just seat time amd experience doing it...

The rules are guidelines and good ones to use for starters but at the end of the day common sense and common respect out there is what it really takes to have a good time.

[manthony121]

I short, it's in the SCCA rule book. NASA rules are a little different but very close.

You should read the book before you go to school. If they didn't tell you that already.

You learn ^^^ and what a red flag means, safety for you and your car, everything you need to race.

J~

I haven't seen the NASA rule book, but the SCCA GCR says, essentially (6.11.1.D) that the overtaking driver is responsible for completing the pass safely, and the overtaken driver is responsible for being aware that he is being overtaken, and not to block.  Hence my question.  After watching several videos from on-board cameras, I've seen some drivers take the apex, while others leave room in what looks to be a similar situation.

[Keith Novak]

My advice to a new driver would be: 

 

If you are getting passed by a faster car (different class and more HP or you're getting lapped) allow room.  You're really not racing them for class or position and you don't make many friends being a rolling chicane.  If you are racing someone hard, you probably don't want to race them 11/10ths just yet.  Give some room.  You might be a bit green still.  They might be a bit green still.  Mistakes do happen.  You don't need to just point them by or give them excessive room but be ready for one or the other of you to bobble.  2 bent cars is not worth 1 finishing position mid-pack.  Work on clean passes where it is clear who has the line or expect to go 2 (or more) wide.

 

At the same time, if you are passing another car, don't assume they are going to know exactly where you are or try the low percentage dive bomb where you'll be on their inside before they can turn in and expect they'll be able to see you and react.

 

As you get more experienced, you'll find a lot of nuances to passing and that mistakes still happen and when they do, there are always 2 sides to the story and then there is the truth.

[James York]

At a drivers school.  Just yield the line.  Car contact/wrecked cars will surely be frowned upon by the SCCA.

 

And as you gain experience, it will become more clear.  Always need to ask yourself, "do i potentially want a wrecked car, or wreck someone by this move?"

[mvzante]

This is my first year of racing and I had the exact same concerns.  At least for me I was surprised at how aware of my surroundings I was once I got in the car and even more surprised at how fast my brain processed the information that was in front of me, beside me, and behind me.  I check my mirrors on the strait, before the corner, exiting the corner, etc., pretty much any time there is a potential for a change of position.  If that car that was in my mirror before is no longer there, guess what, he's probably beside me.  Just be smart, be courteous, check your mirrors, and be aware of your surroundings and you'll be fine. 

[Johnny D]

Here's NASA version "with pics"   page 82. 

http://www.nasaprora...m/rules/ccr.pdf

 

Some things to learn...

How wide and long your car is.

Awareness of others around you.

Closing rate.

Also if you're side by side but you are far away from the other person, the other person may not know your there.

I.E you are all the way to the left of the track, he's all the way to the right.

In school, don't assume they know, see, hear....whatever.

J~

[manthony121]

Here's NASA version "with pics"   page 82. 

http://www.nasaprora...m/rules/ccr.pdf

 

Great reference.  Thank you.

[Bench Racer]

Plese keep in mind, your at a school to learn and obtain your novice permit. Always use the traditional racing line, then others know where your driving. Your not at a school to win a race. Learn, learn and learn some more. Have you checked with someone about the school schedule/test?

Most of all, Have Fun.

[Johnny D]

I can see him now.

http://farm5.staticf...f0836c794_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticf...2692259fe_z.jpg

 

J~

[FTodaro]

As you get experience with this it gets easier to understand and apply. as you get more experience, and importantly, learn who you are racing with it will get easier. knowing who is at your door. It makes a difference as some drivers are aware and think ahead to the next move, and some drivers are known to dive bomb and maybe not pull it off. So knowing who it is helps a ton. if you do not know the type of driver your dealing with then its best to use caution and expect the worst.

 

As a general rule, the person who is making a pass has the responsibility to do it safely with out hitting you, they have to give  you racing room, but there are some exceptions.

 

The most common racing incident is someone attempting a pass on the way into the corner. If they beat you to the apex you no longer have the line and have to give it up, if they have not passed you or are not to your door as you are approaching the apex you have the choice of taking your line and hoping he backs out or you could go wide and give him racing room. If the passing driver has not pulled off the pass or at your door at the apex, he should back out anticipating your going to turn it. if there is contact it would be his fault if he tags you in the rear qtr and spins you. but sometimes its better to go wide and live to race to the next corner.

 

its way safer trying to pass someone at the exit rather than the entry, by slowing early and getting to the gas faster and beat the car out of the corner if you have the skill to do it.

 

As Kyle said its a matter of common sense. the biggest mistake new drivers make is the attitude that someone else has to get out of your way. YOU are always responsible to avoid contact, and it is on you 100% of the time when you are the one trying to put the pass on someone, if you cannot pull it off safely without hitting your competitor then don't do it. wait till the next corner. That is pretty simple.

 

Oh and don't get out of your car and throw helmets and stuff.

[manthony121]

I can see him now.

http://farm5.staticf...f0836c794_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticf...2692259fe_z.jpg

 

J~

YES!!  That's me!  Except I would never be so bold as to have car number "1" when I'm just starting out.  Maybe next year.  Also, wooden steering wheels are not allowed.  (I read that in the GCR).

[davew]

Having been an instructor for 10 years, and dealing with many new drivers through Advanced, I will give you some words of wisdom. Worth about 2 cents, but here goes.

 

Nobody wins a drivers school.

You can not win if you do not finish.

If a car was in your mirrors and has now disappeared he is either a) above you, below you, or c) next to you in a blind spot. Give him room.

The prize money will not cover the body shop bill

We all need to go to work on Monday morning. Nobody wants to get hurt

Respect your competitors

 

If you do this long enough, we become an extended family. Some what disfunctional, but a family none the less. Treat each other as you want to be treated and you will do just fine.

 

Dave

[MPR22]

Having been an instructor for 10 years, and dealing with many new drivers through Advanced, I will give you some words of wisdom. Worth about 2 cents, but here goes.

 

Nobody wins a drivers school.

You can not win if you do not finish.

If a car was in your mirrors and has now disappeared he is either a) above you, below you, or c) next to you in a blind spot. Give him room.

The prize money will not cover the body shop bill

We all need to go to work on Monday morning. Nobody wants to get hurt

Respect your competitors

 

If you do this long enough, we become an extended family. Some what disfunctional, but a family none the less. Treat each other as you want to be treated and you will do just fine.

 

Dave

Chris Haldeman and myself were encouraged to race each other at our drivers school.  I think the instructors had money riding on us each session.  We were terrified to touch because it would be another year until a school would be anywhere near us and we wanted our licenses badly.  It was about 20 degrees and the RA-1s were like rocks, Chris' especially because his were like 4 years old. His car was set up to turn right, mine was set up to turn left so it was impossible for either of us to get enough of an advantage to make a clean pass on the infield at TMS.  We did nearly get run over by a Jetta that thought it was cool to drop wheels in the mud and bring it back on track.  There was also Rx-7s and a Triumph that out braked themselves constantly.  It did teach us the flagging system and how to control our cars with idiots flying off all around us. 

[FTodaro]

In my driver school at mid ohio, We had an inch of snow in my seat when we went out for our first drill on track, side by side driving. On slicks.
It was snowing wet but you could hardly see through the corner

[Anthony Ralston]

I can see him now.

http://farm5.staticf...f0836c794_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticf...2692259fe_z.jpg

 

J~

or Worse