36 replies to this topic

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Every situation is different,I have lost first place a few times because of a back marker and also have won because of a back markers. I have also used them to my advantage and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't blame them it's a part of racing and it happens. The only thing I will say to any back marker and you know who you are,just keep an eye open for the flags that someone fast is coming and hold your line.

Sometimes you won't see a flag out but if your not racing with anyone keep an eye out behind you. You will know a fast guy is coming when you didn't see him in the last corner but see him in the next. My advise is hold your line and the faster guy will find a way around you,don't try to get out of his way mid corner as you can mess it up for both of you. Now if you are racing another car it is totally up to us ( faster guys ) to find away around you. Don't lose a spot over the faster cars coming from behind it is up to us to find a way around.

Back marker guys don't get discouraged we have all been there and know what it's like.

As far as blocking goes,I think that's a loser way to race. I will let you do it to me a couple of times but don't expect me to be nice the third time. Now defending is totally fine and is a part of racing,now I can say a perfect example is Kyle Webb nothing wrong with how he does it but he can make his car as wide as a semi and is hard to pass. He can take the middle line as well as the racing line,like the interview said that is hard to do.

Ps Kyle that will be the last nice thing I say about you,now I will get back to my old self ! lmao !!!

[Danny Steyn]

Yeah right. More talk of how the front has it all right and the mid to back pack guys are the cause of all the woes. This comes up all the time but if I remember right 2 run offs ago the front was involved in taking each other out and the winner apologizing. And the last runoffs at Mazda more of the same.

 

Combine this with Danny's comments from another thread that the slow guys shouldn't even be on the track because they dont' have the balls of the front guys or just get off on being mechanics and one begins to feel that you guys would rather us remove our cars from the field and let you guys play alone. But in the next breath you bemoan car counts.

 

And as a side not; the engine stuff of this year may not be pretty and nice, but it certainly isn't BS. At least that is how the people that had no problem interpreting the rules feel.

 

This is all pretty interesting - I posted a thread to provoke a discussion on blocking vs. defending, and unfortunately I seem to be inadvertently dragged into a discussion about what lapping cars should be doing!  . The lapping car definitely did NOT cause the crash in Canada corner!   

 

Fortunately it seems as though we are all agreeing with the concept that REACTING is BLOCKING – that is the point I was trying to get across

 

Michael

Michael, I appreciate your kind words in the post above. Just unfortunate that the lapped car entered the conversation  

 

JAMZ

Please point me to the thread you refer to above  …. “Danny's comments from another thread that the slow guys shouldn't even be on the track because they don’t' have the balls of the front guys or just get off on being mechanics” ……. I am unaware of EVER making a comment like this, it’s definitely NOT my character, but there is always the possibility that I wrote something in a way that can be misconstrued.

 

The over-compression and the STR mods were WRONG. No two ways about it. Personally I would have preferred if SCCA had left the rule the way it was written.

 

Drago

I agree with your “squeezing” sentiments

[Jim Drago]

And lastly... just don't hit me, run me off the track or into the wall  and I am pretty much fine with the rest, I 'll figure it out

[Caveman-kwebb99]

 Now defending is totally fine and is a part of racing,now I can say a perfect example is Kyle Webb nothing wrong with how he does it but he can make his car as wide as a semi and is hard to pass. He can take the middle line as well as the racing line,like the interview said that is hard to do.

Ps Kyle that will be the last nice thing I say about you,now I will get back to my old self ! lmao !!!

 

Kuch, it is very humbling to me that with all the mistakes I have made over the years on track, that someone like yourself feels I conduct myself properly while racing.  I have tried very hard to earn the respect of my competitors by driving cleaner and cleaner as the years have gone by yet still driving hard and making people earn the spot ahead of me.  Your comment above is maybe better then any checkered flag I have won.  

[Michael Novak]

 

In my crash with Joey.. Just a shitty deal. My car sucked no possibility of getting to the podium. I had no real intention of passing Joey at that corner. I faked a move to the inside to try and force Joey into a mistake, which he made and locked up pretty badly and went really deep into 2. At that point I dove under and went for the pass. I don't think Joey would have turned in for apex 2, but he was called "clear" on the radio. Joey also recovered from the lock up much faster than I anticipated. Otherwise, I would not have went for the corner. I expected to go through two wide worst case. I was not side by side, so by my own definition I was "not" clear. If I were on the outside and locked up, I would be giving room at second apex, which I think Joey would have as well, had he not been called clear. Worst part was both of us were unhappy with current positions, unlikely either of us was moving up or back more than a spot or two which would have still been disappointing, so that made the contact even worse as neither of us were dying to finish 5-6 IMO. I could have finished 6th no problem as we had a good gap at that point, but pulled in because Joey was unable to continue.

 

 

Your old eyes thought it was Stearns.............and it was the runoffs........  

[Craig Berry]

Too funny Novak, but unfortunately probably true!
Good topic. I think most of us have a video of a car in front Zig Zagging manny times to stay in front, and I also know that most of us will "wander" or become more aggressive protecting our spot at the end of a race....I do. In my experience most of us race the way I expect. I do agree with, do not run me into the grass, fence, or take me out and it is my responsibility to deal with the rest.

Danny, that Sprints really sucked....as much as you did not want to see the lapper (which I agree was Not the cause) I did not either, I had a small gap on 3rd place in the Carousel and wanted it to be a 2 car race, but when I saw the lapper and figured we would meet him in the Kink, I backed off (I had stayed flat the year before and it cost the the win), unfortunately my gap was too small and third caught up, so now it was no longer a 2 car race. You did not block, but I did, third place had a strong run on us and I moved in front of him....this being the only option I had. We all know what happened next. Road America can be heartbreaking, 3 years at the Sprint I have led on the last lap and not won, so I feel your pain (BTW, one of those years was my first time at Road Am in the rain when you passed me for the lead on the last lap, going up the hill out of 5 and I missed a shift) that one still gets me, but it was a great race!

[Jamz14]

Danny,

Searching and trying to find old post is a challenge to me. You dont recall suggesting recently that some people just dont have that drive to live on the edge or something like that , that going fast requires. You went on to say some were just racing because they get off on the wrenching and didnt have that desire to be on the edge. Jim then commented back something about you sounding like him. If I am remembering wrong; I apologize.

I have listened to people harping on the back markers and mid pack guys for a long time. I have seen as many or more issues with the front guys but you guys characterize your mistakes differently. If a mid pack guys blows it you call it incompetence. A front guy does something it is an understandable mistake that happens when split decisions are the norm.

I like jims post that suggest all are probably driving on the edge of their ability so their pucker factor is the same as yours. Just achieved at a different speed than you. I also like that he said that most are trying hard not to screw up others and have the same problems as the fast guys because again, they are driving on the edge too.......their edge. Right now i am probably 6-10 seconds on average off you pace with 2 sessions in the car. I guarantee you that for me, trying to find the tire limit that you front guys live at, had every bit of pucker factor you experience being way way faster than me. Again, if I have your comments wrong, I apologize.

[MPR22]

As to my comment about lapped causing the wreck in Canada, I over stated what happened. The lapped car created a situation wherel 3 cars came to Canada at the same time. The same thing could have happened if he stayed on line so my assertion that he caused the wreck was wrong. I was trying to make a point about lapped traffic should in my opinion drive the racing line regardless of what's happening around them. It's part of racing and I have been both the beneficiary and the victim or rolling picks. It adds another dimension and can be quite enjoyable even if I am on the wrong end of the finishng position occasionally.

Jamz,

There is from time to time a lack of respect at all levels of racing. We all started at the back at some point, I have been lapped, I have wrecked guys out of races through what at the time seemed like an aggressive race move as opposed to a bad decision. More than anything I do this because I desire the respect of my competitors, that is hard won and easily lost with decisions on the track. I respect a competitor doing his or her best, regardless of what current skill level they have. I do not respect drivers who think we are in bumper cars and think push or crash to pass is acceptable. I do not repect last second defensive moves that put both cars at risk. I had to start from the back several races last year in fields of 30 +. In one particular weekend I was hit 4 times by 4 different cars on the way forward, eventually I got so frustrated I punted one poor guy who was the beneficiary of another guys contact, sorry Steven. Its hard when you get started to know what level of aggression is just the right amount. "Controlled Agression" is the closest term I have to describe what it takes to win a race in a spec class.

I post some of this so others can learn from reading as opposed to body damage or worse. We all want to go home to our loved ones, none of us make money at this and most of us want to spend as little as possible and achieve our personal goals.

Glad to hear you are racing.

[Jamz14]

Thanks MPR22. I know the intentions are good.

 

Nova wouldn't have it any other way than for me to take his place in his car. Maybe one day I will be as fast as you guys, but if not, I am good with that.

 

Be safe, drive fast my friend.

[mhiggins10]

I have been the guy that guy, the one in the way... (we all have at some point)  It is not always as easy to get out of the way as you would think. You are probably doing almost all you can as it is or you wouldn't be there. Your also nervous as hell as you don't want to screw up the race for the leaders. We need to remember that we are all racing in about 95-100% of our abilities.. So even if the backmarker is slower, he has as much ( or more) going on as you.  Personally,   If possible, I get completely out of the way. If there is any doubt that I can't do that, I stay on line. 

 

As one of the oft-mentioned backmarkers, I could not agree more.  My race goal at any new track (or one I haven't been to in a long while) is "Just don't get lapped."  Usually by Sunday, it's not an issue, but in addition to working on learning the craft, I am extremely aware that there are others out here for whom a lot more is riding on the weekend (points, championships, respect, bragging rights, a $5 trophy or a patch for the firesuit, etc.)  The LAST thing I want to do is hose up someone else's qualifying or race.

 

Since most folks here run up front, I will say- that moment when I look back on the last lap (because it's always the last lap when it happens, and in the worst possible place on track) my hope is that the 2 or 3 drivers that are barreling down on me in a pack (because it's also never just one guy motoring by), all take a half-heartbeat breath to consider the guy in the slow car and be as safe and predictable passing me as you'd like me to be with my line.

 

For my fellow backmarkers, it is VERY tempting to want to be off line like the pros (the GT guys at La Sarthe make it look EASY), but ignoring the mirrors and driving the line (even if it's slower than I did last lap) may save you the embarrassment of my last race (skip to 19:20 - I'm the red car).  Afterwards, the driver of this car came up and said "shoot man- I had you on the next short straight no matter what you did.  You just had to drive the line- no worries..." (sage advice)

 

[steveracer]

As to my comment about lapped causing the wreck in Canada, I over stated what happened. The lapped car created a situation wherel 3 cars came to Canada at the same time. The same thing could have happened if he stayed on line so my assertion that he caused the wreck was wrong. I was trying to make a point about lapped traffic should in my opinion drive the racing line regardless of what's happening around them. It's part of racing and I have been both the beneficiary and the victim or rolling picks. It adds another dimension and can be quite enjoyable even if I am on the wrong end of the finishng position occasionally.

Jamz,

There is from time to time a lack of respect at all levels of racing. We all started at the back at some point, I have been lapped, I have wrecked guys out of races through what at the time seemed like an aggressive race move as opposed to a bad decision. More than anything I do this because I desire the respect of my competitors, that is hard won and easily lost with decisions on the track. I respect a competitor doing his or her best, regardless of what current skill level they have. I do not respect drivers who think we are in bumper cars and think push or crash to pass is acceptable. I do not repect last second defensive moves that put both cars at risk. I had to start from the back several races last year in fields of 30 +. In one particular weekend I was hit 4 times by 4 different cars on the way forward, eventually I got so frustrated I punted one poor guy who was the beneficiary of another guys contact, sorry Steven. Its hard when you get started to know what level of aggression is just the right amount. "Controlled Agression" is the closest term I have to describe what it takes to win a race in a spec class.

I post some of this so others can learn from reading as opposed to body damage or worse. We all want to go home to our loved ones, none of us make money at this and most of us want to spend as little as possible and achieve our personal goals.

Glad to hear you are racing.

 

YOU PUNTED ME?!?!? 2=>1 at TWS CW?

 

It's alright Ross, but I owe you one. Show me the video sometime. You should've fessed up at the time, I would have, and I would have been gracious about it.

 

No hard feelings

[MPR22]

YOU PUNTED ME?!?!? 2=>1 at TWS CW?

 

It's alright Ross, but I owe you one. Show me the video sometime. You should've fessed up at the time, I would have, and I would have been gracious about it.

 

No hard feelings

No it was Steven Jeu not you that i hit, mid carousel after the guy in front of him dive bombed me and used me to stop his slide off the track.   I don't recall you and I ever making contact.  I did almost get you going from 2-1 CW when someone bumped you or you spun on your own mid track. I was right behind Babot and he waited and went left and I went right and you were coming back down the track.  Definitely a code brown moment until i got the car slowed. 

[steveracer]

No it was Steven Jeu not you that i hit, mid carousel after the guy in front of him dive bombed me and used me to stop his slide off the track.   I don't recall you and I ever making contact.  I did almost get you going from 2-1 CW when someone bumped you or you spun on your own mid track. I was right behind Babot and he waited and went left and I went right and you were coming back down the track.  Definitely a code brown moment until i got the car slowed. 

I don't recall contact either.

 

When I spun in front of you, the car snapped quite suddenly, so a bump made sense.

 

No worries, poop happens.

[Bench Racer]

When I spun in front of you, the car snapped quite suddenly, so a bump made sense.

 

Steve, curious question, presuming you have FatCat bump stops, when your car snapped quite suddenly do you know if the car had compressed the FatCat bump stop more than the first 3/4 inch in compression (approx 75 pound increase in spring rate)?

 

Reason for curious question is, I implemented a tell tale sliding dip stick (poor mans linear tranducer) to measure the maximum compression of the FatCat bump stops. I wanted to prove a point to myself because for my 2 cents worth I didn't see using the first 3/4 inch FatCat compression as an issue therefore I lowered the car to zero bumpstop clearance (using bored out FatCat isolators that the shock could not hit or wedge into isolator) and I quickly had a SNAP VERY SUDDENLY. At padock I checked my measuring dip stick and found I had used the bump stop way more than the first 3/4 inch and goten into the infinanty rate of the bump stop. Raised the car up two turns at each corner and SNAP issue was gone. Back at the shop, raised the car to 5/8 inch clearance.

[steveracer]

Truthfully, I think I had my right side(inside) tires on the curbing and hit a very large hole at the end of said curbing at 80+ mph...I was too focused on the car 6" in front of me and forgot about the hole.

 

I don't set up with no travel, but not near 5/8". My car actually became calmer going lower than 5/8". And yes, running FatCats and '99 hats.

[Bench Racer]

Truthfully, I think I had my right side(inside) tires on the curbing and hit a very large hole at the end of said curbing at 80+ mph...I was too focused on the car 6" in front of me and forgot about the hole.

 

I don't set up with no travel, but not near 5/8". My car actually became calmer going lower than 5/8". And yes, running FatCats and '99 hats.

For my 2 cents worth, clearance less than 5/8 inch, curbing, hole, 80mph would all be ingredents to use more than the first 3/4 inch of the bump stop and get into the infinity rate of the bump stop.

 

Thanks

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Wow this post turned into a bump stop issue ! lol

Now seeing how it changed I will say yes the car will give you a quick snap out of control when you hit the bump stops hard enough. I set up a guys car to the exact settings he wanted me to and I told him the car hight he wanted was to low but he wanted it that way. I took the car out and had pole but on the third lap I dove into a corner to hot and the left rear compressed to much and the car snapped lose with no warning.