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NASA 2015 SM Rules

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#1
john mueller

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NASA 2015 SM Rules have been posted.  

 

I've been the delay in getting this done, just wanted to see how things shook out from the first few events...  

 

NASA will be participating in the SM Compliance program (CCC) at various events through the year.

 

 

Specific to SM there should be very few (or none) differences to SCCA's.  If you find one, besides tires, please IM or email me.


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#2
Jamz14

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So much for everyone thinking that the 97 was going to get some plate relief.


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#3
Jim Drago

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So much for everyone thinking that the 97 was going to get some plate relief.

Jamz

I dont think this means anything in regards to competition adjustments. Weights and plates can be changed at anytime and they are still doing testing. 

Jim


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#4
MDixon

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I get an error for Johns link

 

 

https://nasa-assets....INAL_2015v5.pdf


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#5
Rob Burgoon

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Is it official yet? 2mm for the NA 1.8?


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#6
john mueller

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Is it official yet? 2mm for the NA 1.8?

 

Nope.  Doubt it's gonna happen for awhile.


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#7
Mark Drennan

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Nope.  Doubt it's gonna happen for awhile.

 

 

Why not? 


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#8
ECOBRAP

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Why not? 

 

Because I complain louder than Ron?  :bigsquaregrin:


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#9
john mueller

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Why not? 

 

Because you (Mark) want it and don't need anymore help  :devil: .

 

In actuality the data doesn't support it, at least that which I've seen.


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#10
Jamz14

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Like I said; so much for the 97 getting plate relief.


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#11
ECOBRAP

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Like I said; so much for the 97 getting plate relief.

 

Take a gander at this video, driver is in a '95 in 2014.

At 3:53 in the video, that is me in a 1.6 ahead. Watch what happens when we hit 4th gear, and no, that is not caused by a "draft"  :)

 

 


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#12
Jamz14

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Take a gander at this video, driver is in a '95 in 2014.

At 3:53 in the video, that is me in a 1.6 ahead. Watch what happens when we hit 4th gear, and no, that is not caused by a "draft"  :)

 

 

Couple of points;

 

First this video is not data. It is an anecdote. This video tells me nothing about your tires, your setup or you as a driver. Second, I know Joey and he is just plain fast. Next, Joey is driving Ron Alans car. Rons car has proven to be fast. I know nothing about you as a builder. Next, you're driving a 1.6 , you guys have already admitted that the 1.6 is fickle to tune, I am referring to the 97 in relationship to a 99 which seems to be the benchmark right now. Next, why isn't there a draft affect going on in this video and why do you think that Joey didn't just get a much better drive out of the corner preceding where he passed you? Can you tell me that you are a top 1.6 builder? I think I know who you are. If I am correct you are a damn good driver and you will be very successful in your career. But if you are who I think you are, you also struggled when it can to the mechanics of the car. At the NASA nationals it was going to be a challenge for you to pull the gearbox and head they were looking to pull. If that is the case, and considering the 1.6 being finicky to tune, I think the difference you are seeing in the video is more attributable to the tuning, setup, tires, and Joeys experience.

 

And lastly, it isn't me really asking for the plate change. You won't find a letter written by me. I am un qualified to accumulate the data needed for a plate change. However, from everything I have read, Tom Sager is qualified and he sees a need. Ask any past 97 driver in public why they don't drive their 97 any more and you will get one answer. Ask them in private and you get another. Mostly it doesn't have to do with the plate size though I'll admit. But here is what I CAN tell you is a problem with the car here in socal. There is a heat problem going on that I cannot identify. The 97 seems to get hot somewhere and the timing gets pulled. In the cold and with a cold track......... the car is indeed very fast. But with ambients over 90, the car is difficult to keep running at its peak performance.


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#13
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The title of the video is enough to prove Joey is a great driver in a great car, don't think anyone can argue with that. However, I disagree that video isn't data. Yes, there are a million variables at play here, but you can cancel all of them out on the straightaway, which is the part of the video I am focusing on. I know how much hp/tq my car was making (good for a 1.6), and how much hp/tq Ron's car was making (good for an NA 1.8). We are running about the exact same power weight ratio, with his extra 3-4hp being countered by the extra 50lbs. What's not addressed is torque, which can be seen twice between 3:38 and 4:05. First, Joey is making a pass into the final turn before the straight. Because of this, he is only able to use half the road, yet the torque still allows him to come out at the same speed, if not faster, than I do. I do not think he would have had the same exit speed if he were in a 1.6. Again, lots of variables at play here, so let's focus on the second point, just the straightaway. Right before we shift to 4th, it is clearly visible that we are going very very similar, if not identical, speeds. However, when we shift to 4th, he gains 2mph on the get go. That is torque, not a draft. The draft is effective, but not worth 4 car lengths over the course of 4th gear. Also, I do not deny I am useless when it comes to setup, tuning, or mechanical experience. However, I don't see how that is relevant if I have my dyno results to prove the motor was good. Either way, I will be driving a top prep 1.6 this year and we will see how much I was missing last year.

 

As for heat soak, that is an NA issue, and I think the '97 could benefit from the turn signal intake ducts I have mentioned in other threads. I am not denying that the 1.8 NA needs help, I just think the 1.6 needs it more. Also, is there a difference between the '97 and '95 that I am not aware of?


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#14
Jamz14

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Tires, tuning, and setup have everything to do with it. If Joey has great tires and a great setup, he is able to come form the inside of the track making that pass you mentioned and still carry more speed out of it. He was gaining on you from the very beginning and not just the 3 to 4 shift. Combining a better exit from better tires and a better setup with some draft affect and you get him pulling on you on the straight. But after he passed I didn't see him pulling away from you. Unfortunately the video stops after this. How did the rest of the race go? How far off at the end of the race were you? But even those answers will be misleading as they still don't account for  setup, tuning, tires.

 

You are a great driver. I personally think your talent will be better demonstrated in the 99 + cars. I also saw you at the nationals hang with your 1.6 with Drennan for more than one lap. That is a feat!!!! Especially with Kyle and Drennans experience at Sonoma. That little 1.6 you are driving is a good car. I also witnessed you hanging just fine if not better than my 97 at Mazda Raceway. So what happened that day? Why weren't we able to pull on you that day? I actually know the answer to that because I know my car and what was wrong with it at MRLS. But that is the point. No one day and no one section of video tells the story of the day or of parity.


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#15
Jamz14

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Also, dyno results only go so far. On the day of the dyno pull maybe the rear end of Joeys car had no toe.Maybe yours did. Stuff like setup skew dyno results. In addition, dynos don't show the affect of air induction, ETC ETC. How was Joeys setup different for Thunderhill that day? I assume yours was the same as at the dyno but it is highly likely that Joeys wasn't.

 

I think everyone has to face the fact that the 1.6 will be favored at some tracks and not at others. Maybe I have to face the fact that my car lays down in the heat and just be good with it. I am not some hot shot mechanic. I work in my little ole garage. But what I do believe is that without setup and mechanical ability, you will sometimes be great and sometimes not so great.

 

Another quick anecdote about how the particular day matters. My son drove past Kyle at Sonoma (Kyles home track) at the last race of 2013. He ran him down from a long ways back. This on a track my son never drove on before. To me, Kyle was having setup problems. I could see it at the chicane every lap where he lost the rear end of the car. However that day our tires and setup were very good. We passed him and never looked back. Fast forward to the nationals and Kyle wins. Was Kyles power significantly different those two days? I don't think so. What was different was how the car was behaving with a different setup ( side note though, I think Kyle was in different cars those two days). The point still stands. On different days at different racks with different setups, the apparent speed of the cars can look strikingly different. Kyle wasn't some loser driver the day my son beat him. Kyle is a great driver. But the car he was in, with the setup he had, very much mattered.

 

Keep pushing for changes to the 1.6!!!! But those changes have nothing to do with changes potentially needed for the 1.8 just because you had one smoke past you on a particular day.

 

Hang in there kid!!!! (don't mean to be condescending, you are a man, just that I am old and anything under 30 is a kid ). You will beat many many drivers and win many races in that 1.6 of yours. And I hope that I have the privilege of driving with you one day.


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#16
Rob Burgoon

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The title of the video is enough to prove Joey is a great driver in a great car, don't think anyone can argue with that. However, I disagree that video isn't data. Yes, there are a million variables at play here, but you can cancel all of them out on the straightaway, which is the part of the video I am focusing on. I know how much hp/tq my car was making (good for a 1.6), and how much hp/tq Ron's car was making (good for an NA 1.8). We are running about the exact same power weight ratio, with his extra 3-4hp being countered by the extra 50lbs. What's not addressed is torque, which can be seen twice between 3:38 and 4:05. First, Joey is making a pass into the final turn before the straight. Because of this, he is only able to use half the road, yet the torque still allows him to come out at the same speed, if not faster, than I do. I do not think he would have had the same exit speed if he were in a 1.6. Again, lots of variables at play here, so let's focus on the second point, just the straightaway. Right before we shift to 4th, it is clearly visible that we are going very very similar, if not identical, speeds. However, when we shift to 4th, he gains 2mph on the get go. That is torque, not a draft. The draft is effective, but not worth 4 car lengths over the course of 4th gear. Also, I do not deny I am useless when it comes to setup, tuning, or mechanical experience. However, I don't see how that is relevant if I have my dyno results to prove the motor was good. Either way, I will be driving a top prep 1.6 this year and we will see how much I was missing last year.

 

As for heat soak, that is an NA issue, and I think the '97 could benefit from the turn signal intake ducts I have mentioned in other threads. I am not denying that the 1.8 NA needs help, I just think the 1.6 needs it more. Also, is there a difference between the '97 and '95 that I am not aware of?

 

1.8 has a lower rev limit, so the early shift might be making things look a little funny.


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#17
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Joey took off after he passed me. But this includes driver talent and handling setup, I did not get fully up to speed in my SM until the September NASA event before the championships. Because of this, I was trying to restrict my observations to just the straight alone. I think it is hard not to see the noticeable speed differential that happens when I hit 4th gear, but as I explain below that may not be due to 1.8 torque after all. Did some more video footage review. Thunderhill, 5:10 and 7:54.

 

 

Car behind launches on me in 4th gear just like Joey... except #83 is a 1.6. Again, that is not caused by a draft, watch as many videos of Danny Steyn drafting as you like and you won't see the same speed differential at the bottom of fourth gear caused by a draft. So I guess my car just sucks in the low rpm range? That gets confirmed by watching this next video LOL. Yes Drennan launches ahead in 3rd gear, but so does Kyle in his 1.6... and everyone else lol.

 


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#18
Steve Scheifler

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1.8 has a lower rev limit, so the early shift might be making things look a little funny.


Not judging any of the arguments here, but the earlier shift should make it fall back relative to the other car not surge forward, because the taller gear equates to a big drop in torque. Unless his power is falling off so bad approaching redline that he should actually be shifting earlier.
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#19
Ron Alan

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James is right on the money...as is Rob. The pass you point out Matt is not some magical torque. It is a combination of things. The least of which is any power/torque differences!

John M has my permission to share any dyno numbers my car(#40)had at the NASA nationals. My guess is it was at least 6/4 less than the other 2 podium cars. When top drivers drive a good car...they will always be at or very near the top. But it's funny how in the eyes of some it's always the car...and the questions and debates begin.

Somebody asked but I'm not sure I can answer what the real difference is other than 94-95 cars are OBDI and the 96-97 cars are OBDII

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#20
ECOBRAP

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James is right on the money...as is Rob. The pass you point out Matt is not some magical torque. It is a combination of things. The least of which is any power/torque differences!

John M has my permission to share any dyno numbers my car(#40)had at the NASA nationals. My guess is it was at least 6/4 less than the other 2 podium cars. When top drivers drive a good car...they will always be at or very near the top. But it's funny how in the eyes of some it's always the car...and the questions and debates begin.

Somebody asked but I'm not sure I can answer what the real difference is other than 94-95 cars are OBDI and the 96-97 cars are OBDII

 

I corrected myself two posts up that it was not torque related, and showed the same thing happening multiple times against a 1.6 at Thunderhill. But I will keep quiet now as I appear to be the only one seeing the speed I lose on shifts in all 3 examples above.


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