56 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Camera mount (NASA requires a camera running during all sessions, don't know about other clubs)

Where is this rule located? I keyword searched the CCR and couldn't find it.

So is it?
Should it be?
I've made mistakes and sworn I didn't do it. Then looked back and... oh sorry.
Good tool to get in or out of trouble with, but at least the truth would be known.
I know... "from that angle it looks like" can happen but...

J~

[Dave D.]

I am the Chief of Race Tech for NASA Northeast, and I have never heard of making in car cameras manditory. Club raceres are nortoriusly cheap,so to make a rule to have everyone put data ac or cameras in there cars would cause an uproar for sure.  

[Johnny D]

I am the Chief of Race Tech for NASA Northeast, and I have never heard of making in car cameras manditory. Club raceres are nortoriusly cheap,so to make a rule to have everyone put data ac or cameras in there cars would cause an uproar for sure.

Fresh from the mothership, the 2013 Supps for our race group.

http://www.nasanorca...oup_A_Supps.pdf

Please note the required camera for us this year. This shouldn't be a big surprise as this was talked about several times last year.

If you have any questions please let me know.

Craig

Just saying.
J~

[Dave D.]

That is for their region and is in their supps, that is not a NASA National rule.

[Johnny D]

No Sh!t !!, Dave.

 

See all the ??? on topic and my statements.

Should it be ??

 

I was just opening it up for discussion.

 

So in your region a $100 GoPro with break your racers budget, fine.

Want it optional for your region fine.

Thank you for your input.

J~

[Dave D.]

I'm not sure you ever delt with groups before..............but I'll tell ya that good idea or not, people will bitch and moan just because they are MADE to someting. Goes along the "can't please everyone" theme. It has nothing to do with how much the cameras are.

 

And drop the attitude............just sayin'...............

 

D.

[Ron Alan]

Johnny is a big cream puff in person   

 

And for the record Dave...no one bitched I'm aware of or stopped coming because they had to run a camera(reality is most already do!)out West. In fact I would guess a few are thankful as it has saved their butt in sorting out incidents!

[Tom Hampton]

I say, run it or don't but, when it comes to "he said, she said" time video rules. So, if you ain't got no tape, you lose. That should make it pretty clear.

[Dave D.]

Tom, That's my atttitude on cameras as well, and that is how the argument process goes after an incident(person with video has more clout). However I don't see it being accepted by my bunch out here if forced upon them. I could see in a higher level series such as World Chalenge,or even NASA Nationals, but not regional races. It is difficult enough implementing GCR updates each spring at Annual Inspection time , such as "what do you mean I can't run with this lead acid battery exposed in my driver's cabin?", to which we reply..........#1."it has been a rule for 2 years already-.so you haven't read the GCR, and #2. I noted this in your logbook to be rectified last year,so I guess you either can't read or didn't race at all last year. Rediculous stuff like that.

   I'm first in line to take the abuse every spring when changes are made. Some of these guys can't be made to accept that the belts are timed out and need replacement, and now have to be told they have to buy and install cameras? I gotta pick my battles on this one...........

 

P.S. I do have a camera in my own car

 

D.D.

[Jamz14]

A non issue. Guys have cameras in their cars because we are egocentric and all believe they are Senna and want the video to prove it to themselves. I see few if any cars without video. Now it working reliably for every session is another story.

[Todd Green]

I don't think the issue is having a camera.  Most people do.  The issue is running it in every session.  I certainly don't bother in practice (especially on test-n-tune Fridays), and yes sometimes there are issues in practice, but not enough to warrant needing a camera, IMO.   Now I guess if I bothered to hardwire the GoPro and/or they made a battery that would last 4 sessions, I'd run one all the time, but adding charging and swapping batteries to my todo list before/after every session is just one more thing I don't need.   (It'd also be helpful if all data-acq systems were integrated to start recording as soon as they started logging to help with forgetting to start your video and/or wasting battery/card recording useless footage in grid.  (I've set my data acq to not start recording until I hit 40+ mph.))

[Johnny D]

I was pointing out the supp to bring it to light as a tool that could be use. How many knew this was out there?
That could be use....
In any Club, Region or track.
In any class or classes.
At any time.
If you have an issue with contact, etc with a group or groups on some part of the track.
 
Carry on.

J~

[Tom Hampton]

I'm against a general push towards regulation, period.  In general I think that regulations should be limited to those things that safety or technically driven. 

 

I don't think that people should be FORCED to run a camera.  If I have contact with another car, and I have video that appears to show they were at fault, and they don't have any video (austenibly to refute my claim and video) then they will loose.  If someone wants to take that risk, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. 

 

That said...I run TWO cameras, forward and reward facing because I want the evidence when I go talk to the Race Director.  And I WILL be hardwiring both gopro's during the summer off-season.

 

 

A non issue. Guys have cameras in their cars because we are egocentric and all believe they are Senna and want the video to prove it to themselves.

 

Wow.  That's kinda harsh.  I can't speak for anyone else...But, my primary usage of video is educational, not egotistical (the evidentiary purpose is secondary to the educational purpose for me).  I'd love to be the next Senna, but I'd never get closer without the video---or improvement would occur at a drastically decreased rate.  I have no delusions about ever becoming Senna (or any other paid driver), but that doesn't negate the GOAL.  Data is great, but it can be very hard to decipher without video.  If I only could have one, I'd rather have video. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Can see it now dq'd in impound for faulty camera.

[Jamz14]

Tom,

 

I guess I can see how someone might think I am being harsh .Especially if you are unable to see the glibness in my comments and understand that I am greatly generalizing the situation. My response was geared more toward the financial hardship case that Dave D was kinda making. The point was that every (again a generalization) extreme sport kid, track day enthusiast, racer, skier, ETC on the planet has a gopro. Why? Not because they can't wait to use it as a training tool. But because we all like watching ourselves. We like showing our friends and family how cool we are. I am no exception. Ive watched my own video from last race at least 10 times. Mostly to improve and to find things to work on, but just because I enjoy it too.

 

As far as against it because you are against regulations in general. Really? Only regs for safety and to define technical? How about regs for consideration of staff? To help them not have to deal with egocentric alpha's after very tense events like track incidences? People aren't suggesting regs just to make your life miserable or tedious. They are suggesting regs to help make things efficient and clearly understood. I know it is all the rage in the country to think regulation is a dirty word. And yes I would agree that you can take regulation too far. For example, if I use your criteria, it would be a righteous regulation to require that everyone run a halo seat and an onboard fire system, you know, for safety reasons. But there is a balance. Am I as safe in my non halo and 5lb hand held fire extinguisher? No. But I am safe enough. Should super cars be allowed to be sold in the US without ABS? Yes in my opinion. So I think it isn't as clear as regs being ok for certain categories of things. It is much more useful to write regs that advance the cause for some group we should be considering. And if it isn't a great burden to implement, do so. After all you have two gopros. What is the burden?

[Jamz14]

Kyle,

 

Now that would be taking it too far. Isn't there a middle ground where we can say you are required to have a gopro, and also understand that it is difficult to ensure that the thing is functioning every time?

 

And if a reg is too much for everyone, a gentlemans agreement that we all try to run it to help the dispute process. That we commit to each other that we will provide the video even if we know that it will show the person providing to be at fault.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

This is almost a non issue in scca where we don't have to report to principles office for most racing incidents. I have never been asked to produce vid for official purposes at scca, I have had to ask for forgiveness from a competitor a few times though.

Nasa is big on the govt issuing justice and it is why they want to require video. Competitors are not allowed per the rules to work it out amongst themselves.

I feel I have a much better relationship with those who race with me at scca races then I typically have with nasa racers. I believe a lot of that has to do with difference in how racing incidents are handled.

And not trying to debate this! I know many here love nasa and love their contact rules. So this is just my preference nothing more.
Sadly my camera rides along in the car while capturing nothing more times than it actually serves the intended purpose of proving I the next one!

[Johnny D]

In SFR SCCA the cornerworkers report it in. Then you get pointed to impound to discuss.

J~

[Tom Hampton]

Tom,

 

I guess I can see how someone might think I am being harsh .Especially if you are unable to see the glibness in my comments and understand that I am greatly generalizing the situation. My response was geared more toward the financial hardship case that Dave D was kinda making. The point was that every (again a generalization) extreme sport kid, track day enthusiast, racer, skier, ETC on the planet has a gopro. Why? Not because they can't wait to use it as a training tool. But because we all like watching ourselves. We like showing our friends and family how cool we are. I am no exception. Ive watched my own video from last race at least 10 times. Mostly to improve and to find things to work on, but just because I enjoy it too.

 

As far as against it because you are against regulations in general. Really? Only regs for safety and to define technical? How about regs for consideration of staff? To help them not have to deal with egocentric alpha's after very tense events like track incidences? People aren't suggesting regs just to make your life miserable or tedious. They are suggesting regs to help make things efficient and clearly understood. I know it is all the rage in the country to think regulation is a dirty word. And yes I would agree that you can take regulation too far. For example, if I use your criteria, it would be a righteous regulation to require that everyone run a halo seat and an onboard fire system, you know, for safety reasons. But there is a balance. Am I as safe in my non halo and 5lb hand held fire extinguisher? No. But I am safe enough. Should super cars be allowed to be sold in the US without ABS? Yes in my opinion. So I think it isn't as clear as regs being ok for certain categories of things. It is much more useful to write regs that advance the cause for some group we should be considering. And if it isn't a great burden to implement, do so. After all you have two gopros. What is the burden?

 

Glibness doesn't come through in forum posts very well.  We aren't discussing every "extreme sport kid, track day enthusiast, racer, skier, ETC".  Just racers.  And, I don't see your characterization as an accurate one of the PRIMARY goal for the racing community.  Sure we all like racing videos---but, I don't think that's not the primary reason we record it.  I don't know THAT many racers, and the ones I DO know are pretty serious (like me) and are at the front of the pack (unlike me)---so maybe my sample is skewed.  But, I don't know a SINGLE racer who records video primarily for the fun-factor. 

 

Yes, I really am anti-regulation.  I would dispute the claim that video (or regulations, in general) would reduce the tension of those incidents.  Both parties still think their video supports THEIR position, and the other video is just a "funny angle".  Confirmation bias is RAMPANT in racing incidents.  The tension is going to be lessoned by the way the PEOPLE handle the situation, not because of some rule or video.  We have rules for conduct on and off the track.  Those don't decrease the tension either.  The reality is that if one party doesn't have video then the discussion is pretty short.  If someone wants to be an ass, they are going to be an ass regardless. 

 

Obviously there is no burden to me...as you note, I already have two cameras.  I run the fwd camera in all sessions (for the educational and entertainment value) and I run both cameras in races for the added evidentiary value.  The only time I watch the rear video is if something exciting happens behind me. 

 

Also note that I have a halo seat, a 1 5/8" OD/90mil wall roll cage, a hans (required per rules), a 4L fire system with 6 nozzles, a 3 layer suit, and wear fire retardent underwear.  As noted, many of the above is in excess of the minimum requirements.  I don't need regs to tell me what is "safe enough" or anything else, for me.  If someone else wants to make a more "minimal" informed choice, I support their right to do so.  Changing the rules to require any or all of the above optional additions, wouldn't burden me either.  But, a number of people on here and elsewhere would squeal like stuck pigs.  Sheesh we just went through that when the HANS was made mandatory. 

 

If you don't tech the proposed camera rule, and have a consequence for violating the rule...then what is the point of the rule?  We already have the essense of the gentlemen's agreement.  The only real difference is that many are unlikely to show unfavorable video.  But, the result is mostly the same...if you don't have video (or choose not to show it), you loose...unless BOTH cars don't have video.  In my region, both cars without video is VERY unlikely (in SM/SSM anyway). 

[Johnny D]

Glibness doesn't come through in forum posts very well.

We have the filter on.
J~