15 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

https://www.yahoo.co...-160000229.html

J~

[KW78]

This is a heinous example of the legalized bribery in our political system allowing big corporate manipulation to create and maintain a monopoly.   

 

Fortunately the OBD2 law salvaged the independent's industry in the 90's, but this will do us in in one fashion or another now, as the manufactures strategy of non-serviceable assemblies replacing components that were serviceable, have essentially gone down this path already.  

 

The irony is that I still see example after example of corporate trained dealership techs leaning on the Independents to solve a large volume of hard problems.   Remember all dealerships I know of fired all diagnosticians several years ago and replaced the highest trained higher salary employees with a strategy of customer pay parts replacement by batch history.  Now that that has become unacceptable, they want to make the consumer choice of actually finding a tech who will at least tests the condemned component, an Illegal choice and illegal act.

 

Is this country in real trouble?

[luvin_the_rings]

I work for an OEM manufacturer that makes, distributes and supports Electronic Power Steering units for a big foreign car company.  Unlike the conventional hydraulic power steering units of the past,  these electronic assisted power steering units need to be programmed to assist the driver's steering efforts. The hydraulic units of the past use their hardware to provide the correct assist during different scenarios, so once the unit is machined and installed, it never changes.  This is good for simplicity and cost, but in the end, customers want more control of the various systems on the car.  This leads to different steering modes and ultimately more complex systems.   Years and years of R&D, planning, testing, prototyping, tuning, re testing, approval meetings, safety meetings and customer quality assurance goes into theses units.  The hardware and software design is extremely advanced and a company trade secret.  So, they secure the software with encryption and if the power steering unit fails in any way, even if its just a software glitch, the entire unit (retails for around $1000) must be uninstalled and replaced.  The bad unit gets sent back to my company for analysis of why it failed, then eventually scrapped to make more units.  

 

The problem is, the electric motor and power steering ECU hardware circuits are capable of applying torque at any time and in any direction, its up to the software to decide when and where that current is sent to the motor.  So if a garage mechanic like all of us decide they don't like the way the steering assist feels, and we break the encryption, we can change how the system performs.  But what if we mis-click a box? or mis-place a decimal? then all of a sudden when you reach 45 mph, the car snaps to the right and we end up in a wall, endangering the passengers, and everybody surrounding the vehicle.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love to tinker with my cars as much as the next guy, I even studied mechanical engineering so I could learn to tinker better.  It literally is the driving force behind my existence.  But no matter how much you know, there is always something you don't know.  These things are dangerous if in the wrong hands.  

 

There needs to be a level of security with these new systems to protect the customers. 

Yes,conveniently it makes the car company more money, i imagine not by coincidence, but there is more to consider than just the shutting out of us garage mechanics.  

 

-Z

[Johnny D]

http://www.wired.com...hip-john-deere/
J~

[KW78]

Z,

 

I appreciate the reply and perhaps against better judgement will try to have a political conversation on a forum....  

 

  So if a garage mechanic like all of us decide they don't like the way the steering assist feels, and we break the encryption, we can change how the system performs.  But what if we mis-click a box? or mis-place a decimal? then all of a sudden when you reach 45 mph, the car snaps to the right and we end up in a wall, endangering the passengers, and everybody surrounding the vehicle.  

 

 

There needs to be a level of security with these new systems to protect the customers. 

Yes,conveniently it makes the car company more money, i imagine not by coincidence, but there is more to consider than just the shutting out of us garage mechanics.  

 

-Z

 

The kind of example you cite is the kind of example they are leveraging in order to seem credible.  It is a diversion at best, and hopefully not effective...

 

 The short answer to what if some one messes with it is....  they are responsible for their actions.  Its the same as if they mis calculate the thickness of a weather tech floor mat that sticks the throttle down and causes an accident, exactly the same.  But it sounds a whole lot more black box magic and viable to talk about a tuner that mis checks a box.    The problem with the argument is the scale - the amount of tuners (in this example) that may offer a re-tune for a sport steering feel is insignificant.  In fact I imagine that all tuner work is insignificant in scale to the real world driving activity.  

 

But, these micro-possibilities are a way to sell a law that everyone has to be "protected" with...  but the real world activities such as resetting a brake pad wear indicator, or a battery life algorithm, or a fluid level check on a scan tool, which happens every day, is the target of the automakers.  It is simply a money grab using a intellectual property twist..  

 

Dangerous is eroding choice not wondering if the 370z at the stop light is commanding a different cam curve than stock...

 

My .02

 

Kyle

 

 

BTW a side comment is maybe instead of more laws, GM has the right idea in backing off of the computerized creature comforts that boil down to just a selling point without really being useful in the big scheme of things.  

[Diller]

I'm sure at one point the OEMs were scared when people started messing with fuel injection and ECU controlled ignition timing. Just like it would be a great life lesson to lean that 45* of total timing on a turbo motor is a bad idea, grossly adjusting any other mission critical system without complete understanding can be catastrophic.

 

"Remove all the warning labels and let the problem take care of itself"

[fotostars]

Well, let's say I'm back in time when there is no computer of any sort in the car.

I decide to work on my brakes and inadvertently "mis-place a decimal"  when setting my torque wrench.

A few days later, driving at 45mph, I hit the brakes to avoir a kid crossing the street. My caliper bolt wasn't torqued properly and gets loose: Bahm! I kill the kid!

 

My point is: Working on your car has very serious implications. Whether it's with a wrench or a computer!

 

Now, for the fact that you don't own your car but only license the right to use it. It's a far fetch. Probably true for all the software components that are into the various control modules but extending that to the complete car, come on....

[LarryKing]

In the near future we won't even be allowed to drive our cars. All cars will be self-driving. It will start as a convenience/safety item, then become mandatory.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ummer.html?_r=0

[wheel]

On the other hand, if I don't own the car, the owner is responsible for any damages that the car may inflict.  Take ownership, take liability?

Interesting.  I'm sure the lawyers will like this discussion more than the mechanics among us.

wheel

[Tom Sager]

In the near future we won't even be allowed to drive our cars. All cars will be self-driving. It will start as a convenience/safety item, then become mandatory.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ummer.html?_r=0

Only if we elect more idiots.  

[FTodaro]

In the near future we won't even be allowed to drive our cars. All cars will be self-driving. It will start as a convenience/safety item, then become mandatory.

 

http://www.nytimes.c...ummer.html?_r=0

There are some car companies that think they need to build cars that take the driver out of the equation. When Porsche announced a few years ago, that they would only build the GT3 with PDK and would not even allow drivers to special order a standard transmission, that is when i threw in the towel with owning a P car.

 

I had a 2007 997-GT3 what a wonderful track car, and to not give you the option of a stick. is sad.

 

Most of the cars today have so many electronics you do not need much skill to drive them on track. As a past instructor i think that is a good thing as it is scary as shit to get in a car with some of the kids of today in the 600 hp cars and try to teach.

Its bad for the driver who wants to learn.

 

That is another reason why i like the chick car racing, its all between the hands, feet, and my head.

[LarryKing]

 

Only if we elect more idiots.

 

Unfortunately the corporations that REALLY run this country aren't elected, they buy the elections.

[Ron Alan]

Unfortunately the corporations that REALLY run this country aren't elected, they buy the elections.

Would that be the Union or non-union controlled Corporations? But I'm with you either way. Non-assimilation will eventually kill the great country we grew up in regardless of which side of the isle you like to sit. 

 

 

Only if we elect more idiots.  

Bah dumm...symbol crash!

[wheel]

Boy, I feel better already. You guys are real uppers.

[Johnny D]

https://www.youtube....h?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM

J~

[luvin_the_rings]

Kyle, 

 

I agree with you.  The amount of tuners out there for steering feel will be very small.  Same with tuning for brake bias, ABS activation point, Airbag deployment rate, stability control, traction control, and all other major safety systems controlled via micro controller.  Are the car companies using this as an example to put a blanket law over all vehicle systems? yes they probably are.  But the dangers of tampering with these systems still remain, and speaking from experience, they are much easier to screw up and have a much higher safety consequence than the other mechanical systems on the car.  In my opinion, the safety systems should be sealed and encrypted, as they are today. 

 

The engine, transmission, and maintenance settings tho, I think the current method many people use of piggyback controllers has worked fine and should not be restricted.

In the end, were all descendants of the moonshine bootleggers right?  

we must embrace it.