Jump to content

Photo

1.6 Data & Testing

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
1001 replies to this topic

#1
Jamz14

Jamz14

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:California

Just thought Id start the thread seeing how I just received the email announcing the results from all the 1.6 testing. Comments and opinions sure to begin flying.

 

The deburring and STR blending numbers look to be greater than what everyone was saying.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#2
Jamz14

Jamz14

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:California

August 12, 2015

 

Dear Spec Miata Stakeholders:

 

One of the projects the Mazda/NASA/SCCA Spec Miata Group embarked on was development and testing of potential changes to the 1.6L NA Spec Miata. The following is a summary of the project protocol, developed and approved collectively by the group and funded by Mazda for the overall improvement of the class.

 

Recognizing the unique challenges that the smaller engine provides to the balance of performance (BoP) of Spec Miata, the group developed the following protocol to evaluate performance modifications.

 

Methodology: SCCA oversaw testing on a DynoJet Chassis dyno at Jesse Prather Motorsports (JPM), in Topeka, Kansas, to compare each modification. JPM performed all performance modifications to the test vehicle. SCCA's Club Racing staff verified compliance and results.

 

Control components: All cars used had a leak down and compression check performed to ensure consistent bottom end performance. All cars had fresh fluids in the engine, transmission and differential. All cars used the same octane fuel. The cars used the same rolling wheel/tire combination and tire pressure.

 

A 1999 Mazda Miata in its current specification and restrictor was used as the baseline car. The baseline car was a representative example of a competitive Spec Miata optimized to the engine preparation rules and verified as compliant to the new (2015) cylinder head regulations. The testing protocol was as follows:

-Engine warmed to operating temperature.

-Car rolled the dyno for 3-5 minutes to warm drivetrain fluids.

-All dyno pulls were done in 4th gear.

-Pulls were made until the power curve dropped off (or stabilized over multiple pulls). The best run was saved as the baseline for that configuration.

 

1.6L NA Testing

 

-A crate motor was supplied by Mazda. The cylinder head from this engine was installed in the test car, utilizing a seasoned bottom end, along with the Springfield Dyno exhaust, adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a cone-style intake. Following the process described for the 1999 car, the 1.6L car was tested separately, but cumulatively, with the following modifications:

1.New crate motor head as supplied by Mazda (unmodified).

2.Configuration 1 plus permitted plunge cut and 1.5mm blending plus valve unshrouding

3.Configuration 2 plus a Jackson Racing header.

4.Configuration 3 plus adjustable cam gears.

5.Configuration 4 plus mill cylinder head to achieve a compression ratio as close to 10:1 as possible without risking valve interference.

6.Configuration 5 plus additional STR blending to 3mm.

-The tests were performed from Mid-February through late March, concluding on March 31.

 

SM_1.jpg

 

The test data have been shared with the SCCA Spec Miata Advisory Committee (SMAC) and NASA. These data can be used for potential BoP adjustments. This is on the current SMAC agenda for its call August 19.

 

The Spec Miata Group is sharing this information for several reasons. First and foremost, the Group wants the process to be transparent to the community at-large. Second, we want the community to have the opportunity to provide the sanctioning bodies with input as the data are evaluated for potential changes. Finally, we found the data enlightening, and felt that you would as well.

 

To provide input to the rules-making bodies, please submit letters to www.crbscca.com for SCCA and/or johnmueller@drivenasa.com for NASA.

 

For the sport,

 

Eric Prill, SCCA Vice President and COO

John Doonan, Mazda Motorsports Director

John Mueller, NASA Spec Miata National Director

Jim Wheeler, SCCA Club Racing Board Chairman

John Bauer, SCCA Club Racing Technical Manager

David Cook, Mazda Motorsports Business Development Manager

Steve Sanders, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Manager

Mike Allen, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Specialist


  • Alberto likes this
Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#3
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Thank you Mazda!!

 

 

So... what's better?  

 

1. A pipey 1.6 that makes the same peak power as the 99, but sucks below 6000 and a little lighter than the 99  (config 6)

 

or

 

2. A 1.6 with config 3 and less weight to make up the gap?


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#4
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Just thought Id start the thread seeing how I just received the email announcing the results from all the 1.6 testing. Comments and opinions sure to begin flying.

 

The deburring and STR blending numbers look to be greater than what everyone was saying.

 

Not so fast, they illegally unshrouded valves too for that step.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#5
Jonathan Davis

Jonathan Davis

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Region:Great Lakes
  • Car Year:2000
  • Car Number:16

Did they do any AFM tuning on the 1.6? Those baseline numbers seem low to me...


  • ECOBRAP likes this
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#6
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Should we request AFM delete and ECU for config 7? :)


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#7
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,129 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

this should be interesting... :)


  • Cnj, Todd Lamb and Jamz14 like this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#8
ECOBRAP

ECOBRAP

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 377 posts
  • Location:Bay Area, CA
  • Region:Nor Cal
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:59

Did they do any AFM tuning on the 1.6? Those baseline numbers seem low to me...

 

Agreed, seems low. What about spark timing?


-Ecobrap

We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#9
Jamz14

Jamz14

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,220 posts
  • Location:California

this should be interesting... :)

There is a old story about a goddess named Eris. She threw a golden apple into the wedding party of Peleus and Thetis. That story came to mind when drafting this topic.


Broken record - You are starting to sound like a broken record. Donor - Made PayPal donation Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#10
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

Did they do any AFM tuning on the 1.6? Those baseline numbers seem low to me...


I'm confident that JPM did at least the common tuning, but yea, from what I've been told if config 2 amounts to what is currently allowed then it seems very low compared to commonly quoted numbers, absolute and relative to the NB. The newest head casting may be part of that, but not all of it.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#11
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,519 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

Anyone know what kind of dyno?  The low HP numbers on the '99 don't seem to match the strong torque number at least compared to what I've seen on some dynojets.  Conversely the 1.6 in config 2 (prepped head) doesn't get anywhere near a good 1.6 torque number.  That right there would have caused me to stop.  They used a complete probuilt '99 but didn't do the same for the 1.6 as it was a street car bottom end?  That's apples and oranges to me.  

 

Might be useful for evaluating the 1.6 upgrades but as a comparison 1.6 to '99 it doesn't look correct.  

 

edit:  Ok it says a Dynojet was used.  Fishy looking numbers.  


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#12
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Did they do any AFM tuning on the 1.6? Those baseline numbers seem low to me...

Agreed.  Also peak-HP occurs well down the RPM range (6500).


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#13
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Anyone know what kind of dyno?  The '99 HP numbers on the '99 don't seem to match the torque number at least compared to what I've seen on some dynojets.  The '99 makes very good torque on this dyno but the HP is lower than you'd expect with the torque it makes.  The 1.6 in config 2 (prepped head) doesn't get anywhere near a good 1.6 torque number.  That right there would have caused me to stop.  They used a complete probuilt '99 but didn't do the same for the 1.6 as it was a street car bottom end?  That's apples and oranges to me.  

 

Might be useful for evaluating the 1.6 upgrades but as a comparison 1.6 to '99 it doesn't look correct.  

 

edit:  Ok it says a Dynojet was used.  Fishy looking numbers.  

It says "DynoJet Chassis dyno at Jesse Prather Motorsports (JPM), in Topeka, Kansas".


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#14
Duane Polsley

Duane Polsley

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 97 posts
  • Location:NorCal
  • Region:SFR

Does config #5 include the Header? If not, why not try both?


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#15
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Does config #5 include the Header? If not, why not try both?

yes, it includes all previous configurations.


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#16
davew

davew

    Veteran Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,297 posts
  • Location:Beloit, Wi
  • Region:Chicago
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:72

I have spent all of 5 minutes looking at the table above. I am still going to stand by my long held belief that a 100% built 1.6 would be competitive with a 100% built car of any year. Although I seem to be in the minority on that. With that being said: here is my 5 minute opinion. I reserve the right to change my mind.

 

This stock head is pretty good, since there was only a 3hp/2torque (Config #2) increase with the current 2015 head rules. My question would be was the compression ratio optomised for config #2? I am going to hope so, but that is an assumption that could throw all the numbers up for grab.

 

The header adds roughly 5 and 5

 

The compression adds 5 and 4

 

The STR adds nothing of consequence.

 

IMHO adding both the header and the compression would definately make the 1.6 an overdog.

 

Adding either a header or compression may make the 1.6 a slight overdog. Forcing a bunch of people to build new cars. At least to experiment with.  Good for me, bad for the class. If either option is to be considered, some weight should be put back on the car. If nothing else to make it easier for the larger guys to get in a 1.6 car.

 

Both compression and a header have issues. First is price. Pulling the head, doing all the calculations. Doing a legal/optimum valve job and then milling to max compression is going to be a $1200 machine shop charge. Add in a gasket set, fluids and labor and you have a $2000 bill if done by a shop. A header could be purchased for $150-$450 with minimal installation charges. Header wins the cost issue.

 

Next is availability. The heads already exist and the engine builders could get a lot of heads done in a short period of time. How many 1.6 headers are available? Is the thought to pick a particular header and require only that part? Or do we spec the dimensions and tubing on the header? But does header builder A make a better header than builder B? Will we have "the header of the week" for a while, as things sort out?

 

How about enforcement? We already have the valve job specs. We already know how (even if we rarely do) to verify compression ratio. Enforcing a different compression ratio is as easy as changing the spec in the GCR. Enforcing the dimensions of an aftermarket header is going to be tough. Opening the rule to "any header" is going to be expensive.

 

My personal opinion has not changed. Until a 100% 1.6 car is built and raced by a proven driver. At various tracks. Change nothing on the engine. I would still allow everyone onto the same suspension components. But that horse has been beaten to death already.

 

I applaud the efforts made by the SM group. I hope that whatever is decided, will be well thought out. Taking into account what is best for the class as a whole. Not just what is best for one group (engine). Factors like cost, availability, enforcement, class stability all need to be included in the discussion.

 

To address the comments about the raw numbers. Let me point out that every EVERY dyno reads different. I had a computer crash and had to get new dynojet software. Ever since, I have lost a couple hp. Compare these results to these results only. Please do not compare them to what you got last year. Or what has been posted on this and other websites previously. Like the official scales are official. Even if they are wrong. These numbers are what we have to live with.

 

Thank you to all involved in this endeaver.

dave


Dave Wheeler
Advanced Autosports, the nations most complete Spec Miata shop
Author, Spec Miata Constructors Guide, version 1 and 2.0

Building Championship winning cars since 1995

4 time Central Division Spec Miata Champion car builder 2012-2013-2014-2017

Back to Back June Sprints Spec Miata 1-2 finishes 2016 and 2017

5 time June Sprints winner in Mazda's

6 Time Northern Conference Champion Car Builder

2014 SCCA Majors National point Champion car builder

2014 SCCA Runoffs winner, T4 (Bender)

2014 Central Division Champion, ITS (Wheeler)

2013 Thunderhill 25 hour winning crew chief

2007 June Sprints winner, (GT1, Mohrhauser)

Over 200 race wins and counting.
www.advanced-autosports.com
dave@advanced-autosports.com
608-313-1230

Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Sponsor / Advertiser - Site sponsor / advertiser... support these guys! Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#17
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

DaveW, is valve unshrouding legal?  I didn't think it was, and it's part of config 2.


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#18
chris haldeman

chris haldeman

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 828 posts
  • Location:Mckinney
  • Region:texas
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:73
Yes rob it is
X-factorracing.com
3 podium finishes
2 2013 NASA nats
1 2013 Scca runoffs
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver BFG Supertour Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - Majors Winner - Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#19
Johnny D

Johnny D

    Veteran Member

  • Moderators
  • 6,121 posts
  • Location:Fremont, CA
  • Region:San Francisco
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:88
Rob, I don't think the Jackson Racing Header is legal either.
Just Saying.
J~
2011 NASA Western Endurance Racing Championship E3 Champ
We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Novel Approach - When a paragraph simply won't do... Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#20
Rob Burgoon

Rob Burgoon

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,465 posts
  • Location:San Diego
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:91

Yes rob it is

 

Oh duh.  For some reason I was thinking "blend".


Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users