33 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

Danny Steyn, on 13 Nov 2015 - 9:14 PM, said:

Doesnt matter how soft or hard the rain tire is, we are going to take it to the limit of adhesion. The harder rain tire breaks away at slower speeds, and last longer. The softer rain tire breaks away at higher speeds and only provides ONE session where it is at its optimum.

I destroyed two (2) sets of rain tires at the ARRC. A 1HC set that I ran in three test sessions that was done after T1, but I didnt want to waste anew set or rain tires on on test day. So I bought a brand new set that I ran for three laps in the ARRC Q1 session, and put it away, but the the edges were completely gone. If all the fast guys had signed up for the CCPS I would have had to buy a 3rd set. But I ran the 2HC set the 20 lap CCCPS. Now both sets are completely worthless, even as intermediate tires. Almsot $1600 in rain tires in one weekend. The H2O is the MOST EXPENSIVE TIRE WE HAVE EVER USED - way more expensive than the SM6's but because we dont normally run in the rain every weekend you dont notice it as much.

So now I have to buy two more sets for the next race, just in case we have a weekend where it rains before the main event. Because, if you dont go out on new H2O's for the main event you are giving up several seconds per lap.

Unlike Mike Collins, I would MUCH prefer a harder compound that gave us more racing life, even if it was a much slower rain tire. What other classes do with our tire should not influence what we seek for in our rain tire. I have no doubt that SM buys more Hoosier rain tires in SCCA and NASA than all the other classes combined.

HOWEVER the RA1 that is a skittish-as-hell rain tire, will last an entire season and a brand new set is only marginally faster than a year old several HC session set, even if it is a year or more old!

[Jim Drago]

Right between Hoosier H20 and Toyo RA1, right in the middle!

[Keith Novak]

This doesn't sound like a question of how hard you want it, but rather that you want it to stay soft after things get hot and slippery.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

just imagine if one of us slow guys with 5hc rains can run within .3 of dannys fast lap on his 2hc rains, what would the fast guys do to him on a wet track???

 

nobody but danny that i know of went through 2 sets of new rains!  I ran the scariest set of rains in practice and then Dragos take offs for a couple of quals and the CCPS race.  Cliff sure wasnt on new rains either.  

 

but in Dannys world everyone buys multiple sets of rain stickers...

[Bench Racer]

From my observations over the years, racing in the rain or dirt brings the true wheelmen forward.

[Steve Scheifler]

The other day I was throwing out junk trying to make more room (for more junk) and came across an OLD but never used set of 205-15 Hoosier Dirt Stockers. I think they were once a popular choice as rains. Would something like that be a better choice?

[Mitch Reading]

Dirt stockers rule! Loved bolting those on mid enduro circa 2004.

[Johnny D]

That may help 5 wide into turn 1.

2 on and 3 off.

J~

[Danny Steyn]

Caveman-kwebb99, on 14 Nov 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

 

just imagine if one of us slow guys with 5hc rains can run within .3 of dannys fast lap on his 2hc rains, what would the fast guys do to him on a wet track???

 

nobody but danny that i know of went through 2 sets of new rains!  I ran the scariest set of rains in practice and then Dragos take offs for a couple of quals and the CCPS race.  Cliff sure wasnt on new rains either.  

 

but in Dannys world everyone buys multiple sets of rain stickers...

 

 

Kyle - there were MANY cars that weekend that went out on sticker rains. I bought one set of new rains, and I know of drivers that purchased two sets.

 

And if you ran the entire 45 minute CCPS race on rains, then you will be the first to attest that there is absolutely no shoulder left on that tire. That CCPS rain race tire is now worthless as a test day tire, other than for having fun pitching it sideways, as it will not give you any reference of how to drive with a fresh set of rain tires and will ingrain false muscle memory. 

 

I made a huge mistake at the VIR Nationals several years ago. I tried to save money on the H2O's. I went out in the three wet practice sessions on old rain tires. I pushed it hard to the limit in every turn, developing muscle memory of where the limits were in the rain. Qualifying was in the dry. The main race was in the wet. Switched to sticker H2O's. Got destroyed in the opening laps as all my braking points were off, my mid corner speeds were too low and it took me several laps to find out how much later I could brake and how much more mid corner speed I could carry. But by then I was buried in the field in the spray with no visibility, so despite my best attempts I could only go forward when the guys in front of me went off. I finally finished in 2nd place, way behind Buras who had been out front from the beginning. 

 

Not saying you have to run stickers every session, but for a tire whose rain performance falls off significantly with every session, be careful that you are not leaving time on the track by not knowing what your tires can yield. 

 

Back in the SM6 days, just ask East Street and others how many sets of stickers they took to the runoffs. Another example of a tire whose performance would fall off dramatically with each session. None of us wanted to chase set up changes made on worn tires, we all wanted to test with the tires we would race on so it meant using a lot of tires.

 

Changing to SM7's dropped our tire bills significantly. I think a harder compound would have the same desired effect on our rain tire expense. None of us want to lose a race because we cheaped out on tires. 

[Danny Steyn]

Another thing to consider is that H2O's allow us to carry significantly more mid corner speed through the turns. For instance the difference in full rain drenched conditions through T1 and T12 at Road Atlanta is between 6-12mph faster through the corner in H2O's than on RA1's.

 

This means that if you get it wrong, your impact with the wall is going to be significantly worse running H2O's than on RA1's.... Just sayin

[Jim Drago]

Danny Steyn, on 14 Nov 2015 - 2:12 PM, said:

Changing to SM7's dropped our tire bills significantly. I think a harder compound would have the same desired effect on our rain tire expense.

I think there is room between the street tire we had with Toyo and this excellent wet tire. Despite what others "think" their opinion is here:) ... If you show up to a majors and try to run a rain race on 3 plus session rains and most of the normal players are on stickers.. You would do best watching as it will be more fun

[Johnny D]

So what are you looking for?

One set for P and Q and a new set for the Race?

One set that last longer, the whole weekend and could maybe test after ?

 

To involve the NASA guys...

Does Toyo need to come up with a rain tire or is the RA1 ok ?

J~

[Jim Drago]

I don't care what NASA does The Ra1 seems to work for them, but it is far from a rain tire.

What I believe Danny and I are saying hopefully with new Hoosier tire contract that Hoosier can make a harder compound rain so that we get multiple sessions, similar to the change we experienced fromSM6 to SM7.

[Cnj]

Jim Drago, on 15 Nov 2015 - 6:33 PM, said:

What I believe Danny and I are saying hopefully with new Hoosier tire contract that Hoosier can make a harder compound rain so that we get multiple sessions, similar to the change we experienced fromSM6 to SM7.

I completely support this. I've come to the conclusion that with the H2O, not only do I need to be willing to burn more than set a (wet) weekend if I want to be competitive, I then need to come to the track with 2 sets of new wets ready to go IN CASE it rains. Then if I run even a practice with a set of H2O's, I'm dead in the water (slow) using them in quali or the race. It's crazy.

But they do make me feel like a god when I drive.....

CNJ

[FTodaro]

BF Goodrich has a rain tire now that complements the BFG R1. Have never ran it but it might be a good middle ground if anyone has any knowledge about it could chime in.

 

I am all for making the H20 more cost effective. I am not sure we need all that capability in club racing, at that cost.

 

The question is, how do we pose the question to Hoosier? Is this a SMAC phone call or CRB? I would assume that just hardening the compound of the existing tire should not be that much R&D.

[Bench Racer]

For the good of EVERYONE in the Spec Miata class, all tires dry and wet need have longer life/useful for more heat cycles. Just as many folks have give up any hope of a podium racing the 1.6 within the Spec Miata class many other 99 plus folks will give up any hope of a podium and quit the class because of tire costs. I'm not talking about me. Example of what I'm talking about would be the following. There was a good reason why in the mid 1990's the Production class Limited Preparation/Level 2 Preparation class came about. There's also a good reason why the Production class will never class any additional Unrestricted Preparation/Level 1 Preparation class cars.

 

The answer why to the changes for the Production class cars is $$$$...................

[Danny Steyn]

I FULLY encourage Hoosier to explore an alternative rain tire to be used as the Spec SM rain tire that has a harder compound than the current H20

 

While the Hoosier H20 is a remarkable and exceptional rain tire and will do exceptionally well against other tire brand's rain tires, what we need for SM is a rain tire that last MUCH longer than the current H20!

[Danny Steyn]

Jim Drago, on 15 Nov 2015 - 6:33 PM, said:

I don't care what NASA does The Ra1 seems to work for them, but it is far from a rain tire.

What I believe Danny and I are saying hopefully with new Hoosier tire contract that Hoosier can make a harder compound rain so that we get multiple sessions, similar to the change we experienced fromSM6 to SM7.

This IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING - thanks JD

[philstireservice]

FTodaro, on 16 Nov 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

BF Goodrich has a rain tire now that complements the BFG R1. Have never ran it but it might be a good middle ground if anyone has any knowledge about it could chime in.

 

I am all for making the H20 more cost effective. I am not sure we need all that capability in club racing, at that cost.

 

The question is, how do we pose the question to Hoosier? Is this a SMAC phone call or CRB? I would assume that just hardening the compound of the existing tire should not be that much R&D.

Frank - anyone that we have spoken to that has run the BFG Wet says it is better than the Hoosier H2O and to boot, it still performs well if the track starts to dry!

[Keith Novak]

First off, I fully agree that the H20 is an incredibly expensinve rain tire due to how the performance drops off.  I personally love racing in the rain and have had several experiences allong with everyone else deciding if I want to go out on slow tires, or ruin a set of fast tires. That being said, just asking for a harder tire sounds great, but may be overly simplistic. 

 

I'm not a tire engineer but I do have a healthy background in materials R&D.  When you read up on the scientific literature on racing tires (which I have) you find there are multiple variables involved.  One of the things going on is that as the tires are heating up and sliding around on the racing surface, the rubber molecules are making and breaking mollecular bonds with their neighbors.  Whether you want to call it cross-linkng, curing, or heat treating, it changes the physical properties of the rubber.  It's not simply that the tires fall off as the tread wears.

 

What I'm hearing is that people aren't complaining about the grip after that heat cycle (we want a harder tire) as much as that they have one magic heat cycle.  Here's the potential problem:  Just going to a harder rubber compound does not ensure that there will not be a magic heat cycle on the new tires as well.  Avoiding that initial round of mollecular cross-linking would likely require some kind of post-mold heat treatment and there we are really asking the tire manufacturer to make a more expensive tire due to the additional process requirements (and R&D to get it right) all with the aim of slowing down the tire as a sticker so that it more closely resembles an older tire.  A harder tire may help, but it's not garuanteed to be a magic bullet.