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#181
Jim Drago

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As a mid pack guy I definitely would not want to go to another ECU and tuning. Everyone spends more money for the same results. And if there are gains we stand to fuel the eternal parity debate. Let's take the money we would spend on hardware and hire a driving coach instead.

I agree.. if we spec a tune unless perfect.. there will be some that cheat again find the same 1/1 over the spec tune, kind of like we may have now, just more money :) 


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#182
Rob Burgoon

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One other feature of afm delete, I suspect that will speed up the 1.6 a bit in the top end. Not the torque we want, but not the worst thing either.

I'm still in the open ecu, open harness camp.
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#183
Erik Hardy

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I will keep my flappy door and OEM harness, except I wouldn't mind a harness that isn't 25 years old. Both work exceptionally well after some initial setup. Plus it gives plenty to talk about for beer time. Solving a cheated ecu performed by a few bastards by reinventing a spec aftermarket ecu + aftermarket harness is insane. A few checks at the races makes this entire thing go away...as quick as the heat shield problem flew away. Pew pew pew.

 

One other feature of afm delete, I suspect that will speed up the 1.6 a bit in the top end. Not the torque we want, but not the worst thing either.

I'm still in the open ecu, open harness camp.


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#184
KW78

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Wait till you waste a few weekends chasing wiring harness issues and report back. We lost many $$ on aborted events due to harness issues and I know we're not alone. Ultimately we rewired the car at the track with some harnesses sourced from ebay. That was fun. Luckily the ebay harnesses had no issues.  

 

 

Harness issues are a reality. Multiple failures on my cars over the years and others that I know personally

 

I/we take from 2 to 6 various customer cars racing to the NASA schedule, and travel, and crossover to WRL enduros.  SOMEONE under our tent has had harness isues at every event for 2 years running.  RACERS HAVE QUIT SM over this.  period.  it is serious.  (and every solution has been tried no less the 4x, and I am now building a few complete "refurb" harnesses)...

 

One of the many problems is that the same SYMPTOMS are coming from a myriad of causes within the system.  But that is a whole other topic.

 

Someone mentioned mazda harnesses were expensive.  It is my understanding they are discontinued (don't know about 01 to 05).  They were about $1400 last I knew.  Mazda does not service any connectors.  Alternate connectors are close but not perfect.  Alternate CAS btw have slightly different pins... 

 

The fear of change and lack of vision is spectacular in this thread.  The logic is just crystal clear to me.  Maybe its just me.

 

The entry level racers coming in wouldn't be required in my view, to change to the alternate spec ecm.  If we really are talking a 1/1 difference, I don't see the problem.  It solves about a dozen other class specific issues for the more serious racer, including reliability, snubbing the arms race, availability, and fresh wiring, and tech shed legal perceptions.

 

I would not allow BTW eliminating the stock MAF on any car.  Even though MS can handle either way and speed density is the simple way to go, I would require the stock maf to keep the airflow the same, even if not using the signals. 

 

I guess the status quo is ok for me, I own a dyno and bill alot of hours doing the swap-o-rama tune method, play with air door springs, FPR levels and combos, tuning for tq sacrificing top end, tuning for top end sacrificing torque next time, etc.  etc. etc.  I also tune IT/PT cars and autox cars, and know that those guys save money time and frustration.

 

It is shouting at the rain at this point, but here is the solution I would advocate.  Available on an appropriate scale btw.

 

NEW ECM - $445

 

https://www.diyautot...-assembled-ecu/

 

 

ENGINE MANAGEMENT HARNESS - $79

 

https://www.diyautot...-ms2-ms3-ready/  (starting point)

 

VVT add on $199

 

https://www.diyautot...unit-assembled/

 

 

 

But, guess we keep doing what we're doing and hoping for different outcomes.  New guys that haven't experienced these issues will replace those chased off is the plan.

 

Back to work,

Kyle


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#185
Steve Scheifler

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In mMmy reply to a post from Danny I misunderstood the topic. There was active discussion of seat belt expiration dates and that was on my mind when Dany said he had experienced "harness" failures. Sorry, my confusion!

Back to wiring harnesses, I'll repeat my prior question. Are the vast majority of failures actually connectors, or are many experiencing a break in the conductor somewhere along the harness, insulation worn through, or...? what do these failures have in common?
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#186
Rob Burgoon

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I've had the egr connector croak.
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#187
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In mMmy reply to a post from Danny I misunderstood the topic. There was active discussion of seat belt expiration dates and that was on my mind when Dany said he had experienced "harness" failures. Sorry, my confusion!

Back to wiring harnesses, I'll repeat my prior question. Are the vast majority of failures actually connectors, or are many experiencing a break in the conductor somewhere along the harness, insulation worn through, or...? what do these failures have in common?

 

I have had a wire to the cam sensor fail near the connector. Wire was broken in the shielding. Couldn't tell by just looking and testing with a multimeter gave a false diagnosis depending on how I held the wire. I have also had a couple of wires to the injectors that were in similar shape. Finding an OEM harness that isn't hacked or falling apart is getting really hard for the NA cars.


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#188
Tom Hampton

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Finding an OEM harness that isn't hacked or falling apart is getting really hard for the NA cars.


This seems to be true for all years. I've helped out with a couple of others NBs in the last few weeks. One car had a short to ground somewhere in the main harness to the ignition harness. After tugging on the big blue connector under the dash (X-16, I think) the short went away.  I was trying to find which side of the connector the short was on.  <sigh>  I'm sure this one will come back to haunt us. 

On another car, there is a sneak path between the ACC +12V supply and the IG1 ~12V supply which causes the main relay to be energized in the ACC position (car would continue to run after turned from ON to ACC). Same car, wipers and washer run constantly.  The owner was on his way to a race weekend, so I didn't have time to figure these out, yet.  I pulled the fuses for the ACC circuits, and disconnected the wipers/washer (doesn't rain much in July in Texas). 

My own 1992, and 1990 donors had alarm systems hacked into the steering column harness. 

 

Also, racers can get a little wire-cutting happy while removing "systems".  If they don't know what they are doing, or trace out what they are cutting out you can quickly end up with all kinds of weirdness. 

 

Shorts and opens are a giant pain to trace down when the entire harness is easy to access.  Upside down in a racecar with the dash still installed doesn't improve this experience. 

 

I've had multiple wires break at or near the connector:

  - OEM Narrow Band O2 sensor wire just after the connector on the O2 sensor side

  - Fan switch right at the connector.

 

I've had two connectors fail:

  - CAS connector retention clip broke

  - Steering column ignition connector (the small beige rectangular one on the left side of the column)

 

My current donor came with a rat (rodent) chewed harness.  the chewings were only in areas I don't care about (left front headlight, and right rear taillight).  The taillight will have to be fixed if I'm going to run SCCA next year, though. 


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#189
ChrisA

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. Finding an OEM harness that isn't hacked or falling apart is getting really hard for the NA cars.

 

According to Mazdaspeed, new NB harnesses are no longer available. I think we are at the point in these cars lives were the unmolested wiring harness rule may need relaxing.


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#190
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I/we take from 2 to 6 various customer cars racing to the NASA schedule, and travel, and crossover to WRL enduros.  SOMEONE under our tent has had harness isues at every event for 2 years running.  RACERS HAVE QUIT SM over this.  period.  it is serious.  (and every solution has been tried no less the 4x, and I am now building a few complete "refurb" harnesses)...

 

One of the many problems is that the same SYMPTOMS are coming from a myriad of causes within the system.  But that is a whole other topic.

 

Someone mentioned mazda harnesses were expensive.  It is my understanding they are discontinued (don't know about 01 to 05).  They were about $1400 last I knew.  Mazda does not service any connectors.  Alternate connectors are close but not perfect.  Alternate CAS btw have slightly different pins... 

 

The fear of change and lack of vision is spectacular in this thread.  The logic is just crystal clear to me.  Maybe its just me.

 

The entry level racers coming in wouldn't be required in my view, to change to the alternate spec ecm.  If we really are talking a 1/1 difference, I don't see the problem.  It solves about a dozen other class specific issues for the more serious racer, including reliability, snubbing the arms race, availability, and fresh wiring, and tech shed legal perceptions.

 

I would not allow BTW eliminating the stock MAF on any car.  Even though MS can handle either way and speed density is the simple way to go, I would require the stock maf to keep the airflow the same, even if not using the signals. 

 

I guess the status quo is ok for me, I own a dyno and bill alot of hours doing the swap-o-rama tune method, play with air door springs, FPR levels and combos, tuning for tq sacrificing top end, tuning for top end sacrificing torque next time, etc.  etc. etc.  I also tune IT/PT cars and autox cars, and know that those guys save money time and frustration.

 

It is shouting at the rain at this point, but here is the solution I would advocate.  Available on an appropriate scale btw.

 

NEW ECM - $445

 

https://www.diyautot...-assembled-ecu/

 

 

ENGINE MANAGEMENT HARNESS - $79

 

https://www.diyautot...-ms2-ms3-ready/  (starting point)

 

VVT add on $199

 

https://www.diyautot...unit-assembled/

 

 

 

But, guess we keep doing what we're doing and hoping for different outcomes.  New guys that haven't experienced these issues will replace those chased off is the plan.

 

Back to work,

Kyle

 

I am not advocating ,nor putting down,this idea, just asking for more info.

 

KW, since you seem to have more knowledge than I do on these aftermarket solutions, what is the labor cost for installing these? And what other parts (connectors etc.) would be required? Would this eliminate the need for fuel regulators and slotted timing wheels? Would you personally share your tunes with everyone, so all could have a close baseline from the start? What would a final "ALL IN" cost be?


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#191
Todd Green

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what is the labor cost for installing these? And what other parts (connectors etc.) would be required?


For a few hundred more you can get the PnP MS and having installed one myself (and I'm a mechanical "mental" midget) I can tell you that it is easy peasy.  You literally just have to pull a fuse, swap the ECU's (they use the stock harness/connectors), and run the MAP hose.  Then load a base map/tune they provide and my car started on the first turn of the key.  I'd say the only tricky thing would be that you have to match the mechanical timing to the ECU's software timing, but if you are going to have it tuned, the tuner can do that for you.  (And it really isn't that hard, just not everyone may have access to a timing light.)  Full instructions.

 

Eliminating the AFM is a bit more complicated, but not required and still a DIY job for most people.  (I also made an adapter bracket to use the stock ECU bracket, vibration isolation mounts, etc. but again, you don't have to.)

 

If you want to pay a shop, I can't imagine getting billed more than 1/2 hour for a basic install.  It's probably a 15 minute job once you get the process down.

 

Also there are tons of vids on just about everything (installs, setting base timing, tuning etc.) and a huge community to help.

 

Then again I said Dewey would get a 99+ before MS was ever allowed into SM, so you guys better not prove me wrong. :P


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#192
Mark

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Use of the stock harness is an issue - too hard to tech and proven to be unreliable. I would be against the PNP due to these issues. 1/2 hr maybe for early cars, not happening on an NB unless you are a midget and a gymnast. Crawling up under the dash on the NB and r/r'ing the ECU is a lot more 'interesting' than on the early cars. 

 

Keep in mind that using a spec tune rather than everyone using their own custom tune would allow some additional options for adjusting parity. As an example - playing with timing curves may be another way to equalize torque curves between different generations of cars as well as a way to equalize rev limits for all years. 

 

Mark

 

For a few hundred more you can get the PnP MS and having installed one myself (and I'm a mechanical "mental" midget) I can tell you that it is easy peasy.  You literally just have to pull a fuse, swap the ECU's (they use the stock harness/connectors), and run the MAP hose.  Then load a base map/tune they provide and my car started on the first turn of the key.  I'd say the only tricky thing would be that you have to match the mechanical timing to the ECU's software timing, but if you are going to have it tuned, the tuner can do that for you.  (And it really isn't that hard, just not everyone may have access to a timing light.)  Full instructions.

 

Eliminating the AFM is a bit more complicated, but not required and still a DIY job for most people.  (I also made an adapter bracket to use the stock ECU bracket, vibration isolation mounts, etc. but again, you don't have to.)

 

If you want to pay a shop, I can't imagine getting billed more than 1/2 hour for a basic install.  It's probably a 15 minute job once you get the process down.

 

Also there are tons of vids on just about everything (installs, setting base timing, tuning etc.) and a huge community to help.

 

Then again I said Dewey would get a 99+ before MS was ever allowed into SM, so you guys better not prove me wrong. :P


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#193
Rob Burgoon

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Boy, matching rev limits and hp/torque curves sure sounds nice.

But with the state of tech in scca, I'm not confident they can police any of that or catch piggies. I like the philosophy of trying to stick to rules that are enforceable like open harness and ecu with something for rev limiting.
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#194
Mark

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Tech should be easier with a spec harness that is isolated to the engine bay (and visible) and a spec tune that uses a digital signature to ensure integrity. Download the tune and check the signature. If the tune file doesn't have the correct digital signature for that year car - FAIL. Bottom line though is that 'cheaters gonna cheat' so nothing we do will ever ensure 100% compliance. The best we can likely do is make a reasonable effort to get 95% of the problem solved and then move on to the next low hanging item: shocks :)


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#195
Tom Hampton

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... The best we can likely do is make a reasonable effort to get 95% of the problem solved and then move on to the next low hanging item: shocks :)


when I first read this I read it as "...the next low hanging item: socks.

 

Sock parity: a difficult weave. 


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#196
Rob Burgoon

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Tech should be easier with a spec harness that is isolated to the engine bay (and visible) and a spec tune that uses a digital signature to ensure integrity. Download the tune and check the signature. If the tune file doesn't have the correct digital signature for that year car - FAIL. Bottom line though is that 'cheaters gonna cheat' so nothing we do will ever ensure 100% compliance. The best we can likely do is make a reasonable effort to get 95% of the problem solved and then move on to the next low hanging item: shocks :)

 

 

If the whole harness and the ecu are visible in the engine bay, that could certainly work for killing the piggies.


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