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#21
davew

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I have played with disconnecting the alt. It is worth about 1/1. But only for a couple miles. Then our tiny batteries start to get weak and the gains are lost. Having the alt switched actually makes sense. On during braking (closed throttle) off during accel (WOT). But easy to defeat the inspectors with another hidden bypass switch.

 

I would be more worried about piggyback fuel adjusters. About the size of a deck of cards, easy to hide. Easy to install.


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#22
Jamz14

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Computers.. 

The 96-7 and 01-05 computers are almost perfect from Mazda. The gains if any would be extremely minimal.

 

The 99/00 computers I have seen done are no better than fuel pressure and timing.. The ONLY gain is if a flat fuel curve. None of teh boxes I have seen offer that. has any one else seen one with a truly flat fuel curve?

 

 

The alternator and WOT deal is a waste..  has anyone tested this on dyno? I have. It is a waste your time, but checking cant hurt I suppose

Something doesn't seem right with this. I have personally seen a megasquirt ECU used in a 99 and it made a world of difference.

 

All, please understand that I am no expert and not trying to come off as one. It just seems that something being "impossible to tech" is an issue and should be looked at. I understand that relocation is illegal. Its illegal because we say it is illegal. I am suggesting an approved relocate pigtail that has the added benefit of being replaceable and with new connectors on it.

 

But let me re ask the question; is there really nothing that can be done about ECUs?


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#23
davew

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Danny, I have not seen anyone other than Panic do the ECU relocation. Maybe others have, but I have not seen it. Is relocating the wire harness a form of modifying the harness. 

 

Not advocating, just offering a viewpoint!!!!!!!!!!!


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#24
davew

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Many years ago the SMAC (myself, Drago, Fowler, Meathead) learned about tampered ECU's. Our goal was to find a way to test for them. Except for visual tests, no method of testing was acceptable to the top brass. That is how the slotted timing wheel and fuel pressure regulator came to be allowed.

 

Good bad or ugly, that is the facts


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Dave Wheeler
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#25
Jim Drago

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I have played with disconnecting the alt. It is worth about 1/1. But only for a couple miles. Then our tiny batteries start to get weak and the gains are lost. Having the alt switched actually makes sense. On during braking (closed throttle) off during accel (WOT). But easy to defeat the inspectors with another hidden bypass switch.

 

I would be more worried about piggyback fuel adjusters. About the size of a deck of cards, easy to hide. Easy to install.

my testing showed less than 1/2 hp, really nothing I could substantiate. If someone felt it is worth 1/1 the switch may make sense? Again, can't hurt to check.  In a 99 up car you will far more harm than good dicking with the voltage in the car IMO


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#26
davew

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 In a 99 up car you will far more harm than good dicking with the voltage in the car IMO
 
AGREED


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#27
Jamz14

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I may not feel good about it but facts are facts and I can deal with that. If there is nothing to be done with ECUs..............so be it.


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#28
Jim Drago

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Danny, I have not seen anyone other than Panic do the ECU relocation. Maybe others have, but I have not seen it. Is relocating the wire harness a form of modifying the harness. 
 
Not advocating, just offering a viewpoint!!!!!!!!!!!

There is another prep shop tht does it as well. The VVT cars make that very easy as it does not have the one connector that limits the relocation on the 99/00 cars. It is not "legal' but there is no performance advantage obviously unless you need easy access to it for some reason :) I have never needed to access any of my VVT computers, once they are installed they are never touched again.  This really doesnt bother me, but I think unless a rule is changed, this would be non compliant. 


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#29
Jim Drago

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lots of ECU swapping is happening on the dyno to find the one that works for you.

 

 

IMO Not true on the VVT or the 99/00 

Anyone who believes so is kidding themselves unless they are are modyifing ECU's. If you have a 99/05 ecu that is fed emission and not an auto.. waste of time less you have a VERY rare bad one.  Dynos can make you think that you are seeing gains that are not really there. I hear all the same stories of X being better than Y etc, all BS IMO.. 


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#30
av8tor

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VVT Intake: 

Porting look for ported and blasted intakes.. not easy to see, but it is obvious if looking at an untouched version

Butterflies verify they are there  make sure they arent thinned and replated same goes for shaft 

 

VVT exhaust manifolds: 

 I have seen the lower flange cut off and welded up about 1/4-3/8 up which increases diameter of output quite a bit and not noticeable unless looking for it.

 

heads:

All that was in head gate and rules rewrite and porting of SS and covering, see this a lot. We created and sent an example to Bauer. 

 

valves: thinned valve stems, thinned heads and back cut valves and then coated to look original.. compare to new OEM 

cams : we need to use cam doctors, we need to check for coated cams, check location and modification of locating pins

cam sprockets: installed correctly on cam, not modified for cam timing

timing belt tensioners, time belt tension bolt modifications

lifter buckets : coatings

 

 

plug OBD scanner in and check water temp and air temp values with the scanner

check fuel more often

 

pull of hubs and pull one apart, check for ceramic balls

 

weigh wheels/tires more often

Really good points.  But I love beating guys with $400 worth of ceramic ball bearings.  



#31
av8tor

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Dave, In my very non expert opinion the ECU is the biggest potential to cheat with the most gained. I haven't ever seen a good comprehensive suggestion to cover the ECUs. The past weekend our ECU stickers were checked to ensure they match the model year. But what stops someone from swapping cases and such? I still think that the best way to solve ECUs is to allow ECU relocates that allow easy access and to have a distributed ECU program at the event. There is some cost in doing this and there could be some minor issues with dyno tuning and such. But to worry about U joints while ignoring the ECU doesn't seem right. I don't have the answer but do have a concern.

 

Thanks

The ECU is simple, you implement an ECU claiming rule.  Occasionally tech collects 5 compatible ECUs on Fri night and shuffles them then gives them back.  



#32
chris haldeman

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I feel the u-joint should be legal. I really don't have much too add to the tech list. As a full time engine builder who has seen inside of almost every builders engines the only "cheats" I've seen have been
Lower valve seat angle greater than 70*
Short side radius slightly behind current rule
1 set of coated Pistons
Vvt heads with the wrong intake valves
Intake valves with tiny back cuts on them
the newly clarified radius deshroud cuts
And timing belt pulley or bolt manipulated.
Oh and a set of cams that just looked different didn't measure them so I can't say for sure they were modded.
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#33
Jim Drago

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The ECU is simple, you implement an ECU claiming rule.  Occasionally tech collects 5 compatible ECUs on Fri night and shuffles them then gives them back.  

doesnt work with VVT as it is coded to key and theft module


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#34
av8tor

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good point, forgot about that...



#35
Danica Davison

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I like the double blind folder idea.  I would just hate to see the chance of 1 car being checked for 4 things and then only one other person getting checked for one thing.  So maybe after you get picked 2 times, it goes to the next car? I don't know. 

 

Going on what I think Jim is saying, I am all for new/different checks at tech.  But, we also need to make sure that these aren't nit picky rules that have no possible intent for realized performance advantage.   Would hate to see guys get tossed for dumb rules that don't make you go faster. Great example, Cory Collum getting a qualifying time at the runoffs tossed because he didn't have a bolt in the hard top bracket.  Bauer couldn't put the piece of paper under the hardtop, and agreed he didn't think it was a performance advantage, but said it was "different from everyone else" so he tossed his time. 


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#36
ner88

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Write the items to be teched on individual pieces of paper and throw them in a hat.

Those being held in tech, pick from the hat.....



#37
davew

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Write the items to be teched on individual pieces of paper and throw them in a hat.

Those being held in tech, pick from the hat.....

 

This basicly my double blind draw.

 

 

I like the double blind folder idea.  I would just hate to see the chance of 1 car being checked for 4 things and then only one other person getting checked for one thing.  So maybe after you get picked 2 times, it goes to the next car? I don't know. 

 

Going on what I think Jim is saying, I am all for new/different checks at tech.  But, we also need to make sure that these aren't nit picky rules that have no possible intent for realized performance advantage.   Would hate to see guys get tossed for dumb rules that don't make you go faster. Great example, Cory Collum getting a qualifying time at the runoffs tossed because he didn't have a bolt in the hard top bracket.  Bauer couldn't put the piece of paper under the hardtop, and agreed he didn't think it was a performance advantage, but said it was "different from everyone else" so he tossed his time. 

 

We got hasseled at Blackhawk Regional for ballast bolts that do not meet the rule of 1/2 grade 8. They where 12mm bolts going into factory seat brackets. 12mm is 0.472 inches. That is 0.028 smaller. i will add this to a separate letter.


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#38
Steve Scheifler

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...
How does a spark plug relate to passing the whistle? Plug is removed for the test.

I haven't seen a response to this so I'll speculate since it sounds like something we have looked at. Perhaps the wording is misleading. If you run a plug which extends further into the chamber and/or has a smaller internal "gap" it will decrease the chamber volume and therefore increase actual compression ratio when runnning, but with it replaced by the Whistler adapter the measured chamber is larger so the compression reads lower. There are several risks with this and to get more than a very tiny change in compression would require a conspicuously different plug. In the end you could do more harm than good and if noticed a quick calculation could be done to factor it in anyway.
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#39
Rob Burgoon

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Here's an easy one, check for different offsets for left and right wheels when at a track with most turns going one way like lime rock.
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#40
Ron Alan

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I had heard about this when I first started but never since until this weekend...it was rumored there was tire softening(chemical) going on. True or not  it made me wonder. 


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