195 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

I had heard about this when I first started but never since until this weekend...it was rumored there was tire softening(chemical) going on. True or not  it made me wonder. 

http://www.speedwaym...PKuIaAhLG8P8HAQ

[Bench Racer]

I had heard about this when I first started but never since until this weekend...it was rumored there was tire softening(chemical) going on. True or not  it made me wonder. 

Oh ya!!!! Look a little deeper Ron, you can procure apparatus to efficiently do the job.

 

Short story from early 90's when Karting. We had to race with Bridgestone YBX tires, lasted for ever because ROCK HARD. The local hot shoe sold his private mix for $18.00 per pint. Gave a small bottle of the private mix to the guy who sold company I worked for paint supplies. He had his lap test and the results were some % this and some % that, but the lab guy was puzzled by the very very small % of water. My response, washed the bottle and apparently didn't totally dry the bottle.   

[davew]

There are about a dozen tire treatments. I had a lengthy conversation at lunch at PRI a few years ago with some NASCAR boys that said was worth 1/2 second on a 1/4 mile track. There are also sniffers that can detect the treatments.

 

Anything else?

I plan to do a summary of this tonight. Then post my letter to CRB showing summary tomorrow

 

Dave

[AJ Roderick]

There are about a dozen tire treatments. I had a lengthy conversation at lunch at PRI a few years ago with some NASCAR boys that said was worth 1/2 second on a 1/4 mile track. There are also sniffers that can detect the treatments.

 

Anything else?

I plan to do a summary of this tonight. Then post my letter to CRB showing summary tomorrow

 

Dave

The sniffers can't detect treatment. They can only detect chemicals in a tire. Brake clean can set the sniffer off. We had these in karting and still treated tires with no detection. The only way to detect treatment is sending tire samples to get tested.

[Steve Scheifler]

Anyone want to start checking exact original version of the brake bias valve? There are multiple physically interchangeable parts with different F/R specs and I know it had been a very common "upgrade" some years back.

[Steve Scheifler]

Bumpstops have become a hugely important tuning tool in many forms of racing. I have no specific information that anyone is messing with them in SM but I have observed cars which seem to corner in ways I could not explain if the standard SM kit was used. Possibly spring rates since apparently those are seldom if ever checked (already added above), and possibly shocks though that would be pretty bold outside the known guidelines. So it might be interesting to document more about the FatCat kit and start scrutinizing those parts occasionally.

[Bench Racer]

So it might be interesting to document more about the FatCat kit and start scrutinizing those parts occasionally.

The first 3/4 inch of the Fat Cat bump stop has a 75 pound rate, after the first 3/4 inch compression the rate is instantly to infinity. Trust me, using more than the 3/4 inch bump stop travel gets your attention in a hurry.

 

Oh and for the folks that like to pick on my a$$, I'm the guy that worked with SCCA/Shaikh of Fat Cat to enlarge the I.D. of the isolator so the shock body top could not jam against or jam inside the isolator. The jam occurred at approx  3/4 inch of bump stop travel.  

[MPR22]

The sniffers can't detect treatment. They can only detect chemicals in a tire. Brake clean can set the sniffer off. We had these in karting and still treated tires with no detection. The only way to detect treatment is sending tire samples to get tested.

I believe a durometer could be used to test the tires.  Anything softer than x at 78 degrees and they fail.  Not sure what x is per Hoosier or Toyo but it should be measurable.

[Bench Racer]

Because a durometer checker is not consistent here is a fool proof tire soak agent checker.  

 

In March 2004 Sinbad jumped out of the SUV of his handler, Scott Edmonds, and went to work. The 10-year-old Belgian Malinois is coming out of retirement from his work as a bomb-sniffing dog to help the track. He has an official "hard card" identification (No. K9-1) and is a fixture in the pit area.

The idea came from Ed Branch, who runs the tire program at the track. Branch contacted Interquest Detection Canines in Pasadena after theorizing that if dogs can sniff out bombs, drugs, and other illicit materials, they might also be able to detect illegal tires. Edmonds confirmed that it could be done, and Sinbad was selected for the task. The dog went through countless training sessions to differentiate between official and illegal tires. Tests were conducted on hot afternoons and cool nights. Sinbad's final exam grade was 100 percent.

 

On the night of his first visit to the track's inspection line, Sinbad sat at three cars and followed that with a post-race sitting. After track officials visited the teams, there were assorted confessions of illegal activity. Sinbad's record is intact.

 

Racers may not consider him man's best friend, but his nose knows when something is amiss.

 

Like all tech officials, who usually work like a dog on race nights, he's just doing his job.-Larry Jewett

[davew]

A new job for Bentley

[Rob Burgoon]

I heard rumblings that if you stick a suspect tire into a trash bag, seal it, and after 24 hours the bag noticeably changes in inflation, the tire has been doped.

 

Also I've heard stories about the cars leaving fat black patches while rolling slowly onto the oval track, haha.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Having owned quite a few of these cars and driven a few other people's cars, I will say cheater shocks are alot more prevelant than most think... recently drove one that felt like what I would think and f1 should feel like on corner entry although shortly after entry the car plowed like one of my companies snow plows... so while cheated up it is not neccesarily an advantage twice I have seen cheater shocks cause terrible handling, is it possible you could figure out a setup to go with those shocks maybe but can tell you the normal setup that works with stock shocks sure as heck doesn't work with them.

[Alberto]

Bumpstops have become a hugely important tuning tool in many forms of racing. I have no specific information that anyone is messing with them in SM but I have observed cars which seem to corner in ways I could not explain if the standard SM kit was used. Possibly spring rates since apparently those are seldom if ever checked (already added above), and possibly shocks though that would be pretty bold outside the known guidelines. So it might be interesting to document more about the FatCat kit and start scrutinizing those parts occasionally.

 

You might want to review his recent videos on the topic of SM's shock valving guidelines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAvu-i1Y2To

[Steve Scheifler]

Kudos to him for putting that out there, surely a calculated move that could increase business or lose it. Though even with tighter specs there will always be plenty of people looking to optimize within them.

I knew there were a lot of people messing with rebound because there is no lower limit, but that seems mostly a bad idea (as also stated in the video) so I haven't been too concerned. But Shaikh has gone well beyond that to exploit the very large "margin" built into the rules and the complete lack of specs for a large part of the real-world range.

As I understand it Shaikh is not alone and I had been trying to find a way of ordering a set from that other source on the sly to see what they were doing. But I think this covers it or at least demonstrates how much room there is in the rules.

Years ago there were no specs at all for shocks and countless variations were being used until we worked behind the scenes to put a stop to it. Unfortunately it appears that the specs are woefully inadequate, or it needs to be made clear to all that modifying shocks within the specs is explicitly allowed. I'm fine with either, I'm just (once again) sick of being at a disadvantage for following the rules.

[AJ Roderick]

I believe a durometer could be used to test the tires.  Anything softer than x at 78 degrees and they fail.  Not sure what x is per Hoosier or Toyo but it should be measurable.

We found ways passed that with karting tires as well. I had chemicals to soften, add bite without soften, and just condition the rubber

[Jim Drago]

We found ways passed that with karting tires as well. I had chemicals to soften, add bite without soften, and just condition the rubber

yeah, but were they fireproof?

[AJ Roderick]

yeah, but were they fireproof?

 

depends on how its applied

 

[Bench Racer]

^ That's to change the scent and throw Bentley off.

[MotoFusi]

Race car drivers cheat? Say it ain't so...................................

 

Methanol burns blue because of an additive so you can see the flames, for safety. A very famous numerous times World of Outlaws Champion that's not named Kinser had a big flip with an ensuing fire. The fire burned a very bright yellow and orange............."Busted". LOL

[Jamz14]

Because a durometer checker is not consistent here is a fool proof tire soak agent checker.

 

In March 2004 Sinbad jumped out of the SUV of his handler, Scott Edmonds, and went to work. The 10-year-old Belgian Malinois is coming out of retirement from his work as a bomb-sniffing dog to help the track. He has an official "hard card" identification (No. K9-1) and is a fixture in the pit area.

The idea came from Ed Branch, who runs the tire program at the track. Branch contacted Interquest Detection Canines in Pasadena after theorizing that if dogs can sniff out bombs, drugs, and other illicit materials, they might also be able to detect illegal tires. Edmonds confirmed that it could be done, and Sinbad was selected for the task. The dog went through countless training sessions to differentiate between official and illegal tires. Tests were conducted on hot afternoons and cool nights. Sinbad's final exam grade was 100 percent.

 

On the night of his first visit to the track's inspection line, Sinbad sat at three cars and followed that with a post-race sitting. After track officials visited the teams, there were assorted confessions of illegal activity. Sinbad's record is intact.

 

Racers may not consider him man's best friend, but his nose knows when something is amiss.

 

Like all tech officials, who usually work like a dog on race nights, he's just doing his job.-Larry Jewett

I have no doubt that what the dog was trained to detect he was 100% accurate in detecting. The problem comes for what you ask the dog to detect.