19 replies to this topic

[Diller]

This past weekend at Road Atlanta I was involved in an incident that caused some pretty serious damage to my race car. A car spun in T1 and appeared like it was sliding to the outside but after I made my choice it came back toward the apex and I hit the car at a pretty good clip. Thankfully we are both ok other than being really sore.

 

My first inspection of the car at the track made me think that it was just body work and a front left corner worth of mechanical bits. However, once I got the car in the shop I can see evidence of the impact throughout the chassis. 

 

 

The fire wall has a bend in it, the floor pan on the drivers side is a little wavy, and the transmission tunnel is obviously distorted (hard to tell in the pic). The gusset from the front left frame to the unibody also has a new crease in it. The front subframe is also tweeked quite a bit at the upper control arm mounts.

 

I haven't taken any measurements yet to see how out of square the car is now but I don't get the warm and fuzzies about trying to save this chassis.

 

I know the saying always goes "It's cheaper to buy than build" but what about rebuilding. In my past, the stuff that makes a car build expensive are the nickel and dime pieces that I already have for this chassis that I can reuse. I would be out the cost of the donor plus cage (all of which I have done before) and a few small bits to replace the damaged shock, swaybar endlinks, etc. I am playing with the thought of taking this chance to move to the NB platform but wanted to asked the more experience builders if it is still worth it to use all my race car bits and build a new one. I have the ability to do all the work myself so I wouldn't have to farm any work out. Just trying to put together some options on where to go from here.

[chris haldeman]

Re tub it. Pretty straight forward. New donor new cage. Re use the good bits from the old car.

[MPR22]

Ouch!.

 

Sorry for your loss, but on the other hand New Race Car!!

[Jim Drago]

Re tub it. Pretty straight forward. New donor new cage. Re use the good bits from the old car.

100%, needs to be retubbed. You can "fix" anything, but you will end up spending less money and have a better end result re tubbing. 

Sorry.. but dont feel alone. I have had to do that  three twice myself

[Diller]

100%, needs to be retubbed. You can "fix" anything, but you will end up spending less money and have a better end result re tubbing. 

Sorry.. but dont feel alone. I have had to do that  three twice myself

 

 

That is kind of where my head is. I don't feel like I would save much money repairing it and the end product would be something I wouldn't be happy with.

 

Sucks too because I only have 4 hours on the new motor and the chassis/setup was finally getting dialed in. 

 

 

So...anybody want a NA1.8 motor that makes good power :-)?

[Jamz14]

As everyone said, retub the car. Not just because it is a lot of work to fix your car. But because it is an opportunity to get in a late model tub that you can take advantage of the development work of all the top drivers in that car. No one is developing NA 1.8 anymore and if you are at a disadvantage, you will have no ability to provide developmental data that can easily be corroborated by top builders and drivers.

 

As a new driver I agree with everyone that has ever said to buy a low cost early model and go learn to race. However, if you are honest with yourself and you are one of those drivers that isn't really satisfied with driving where you are driving and will ultimately believe that it is the car holding you back, re tub with a late model VVT.

[Jamz14]

So...anybody want a NA1.8 motor that makes good power :-)?

So whats good power and how much do you want? Who did the head work?

[Diller]

So whats good power and how much do you want? Who did the head work?

 

PM sent.

 

You are right that the reason I started with the NA chassis is that it was my first dip into SM and a good way to get in cheap. I have had it for a couple years and it is frustrating that (at least before this year) it was obviously at a disadvantage. The one time I had the chance to drive a very well built 99, I won my first race. Guess its time to start browsing craigslist.

[Jason J Ball]

I followed Yan to the left, and you were right behind me. I just missed him by inches. Heard the impact. It sux, re-tub the car. I did mine in 2011 for around $500 in parts including the tub. 

 

Jason

[DavidNJ]

I followed Yan to the left, and you were right behind me. I just missed him by inches. Heard the impact. It sux, re-tub the car. I did mine in 2011 for around $500 in parts including the tub. 

 

Jason

 

I'm confused. How did it cost $500? Doesn't re-tub mean a new chassis with new cage?

[Jeff Wasilko]

I'm confused. How did it cost $500? Doesn't re-tub mean a new chassis with new cage?

 

You generally can move the cage from the wrecked car to the new car.

[DavidNJ]

You generally can move the cage from the wrecked car to the new car.

 

Now I'm even more confused. In all the cage installation videos/instructions/observations I've had with SM's, some bars are wiggled through the dash. Others are cut to integrate on the frame near the pedals. The height is pushed right up to the roof line. The crash that twisted the frame could have also twisted the cage. In any event the new car would need a new dropped floor.

 

I've been told that many builds take the car to bare chassis. And in many/most cases the car needs to be painted.

Still confused. The same thing happens over in Spec E30 where a modest wreck requires a new chassis.

[davew]

Everybody is correct, retub or replace.

 

With regards to transfering a cage, I don't do it. Some people do. the only arguement to reuse a cage is time and money.

 

In order to transfer a cage, you will need to cut it out and cut it into pieces. Then either cut the windshield frame off the new car, or piece the existing cage back together with sleeves and gussetts. then weld it to the car.

 

Many builds do go to a bare chassis, but that is not required to have a safe strong car. If you are serious about racing, build a new chassis with a good NEW cage from one of the reputable cage builders/suppliers. There are lots of saveable parts;transponder, seat, steering wheel, even 3/4 of the suspension, 4 springs are all reusable. I would get new seat belts.

 

My rental contract limits the renters responsibility to $15k, because I know I can retub for less than that. I did 2 this winter and they came out +/-$13k

 

Hope that helps

dave

[Diller]

Thanks for the advice Dave. The plan is to get an NB donor car and put in a new cage and salvage what I can from the 94'. I don't like the idea of trying to cut up the cage and put it back in. Plus, I know what I like and don't like about a cage in a Miata now and I can get it just the way I want it.

 

As expensive and time consuming as the replacement build will be, I am actually a little excited to take what I have learned from the last builds that I have done and make everything better for the next one. Wife does not feel the same haha.

[DavidNJ]

My rental contract limits the renters responsibility to $15k, because I know I can retub for less than that. I did 2 this winter and they came out +/-$13k

 

Did the $13k include labor and paint? For the $13k retub, how much did the new chassis cost?

[Marc Cefalo]

Did the $13k include labor and paint? For the $13k retub, how much did the new chassis cost?

thats's cheap.  have done two complete retubs in the last 12 months.  one was from a previously damaged car that was never repaired correctly elsewhere and the other on a 4 lap old $45k rotisserie build!!!!

 

the inconvienent thing called a calculator when you add up man hours, is a pita.

 

16-20 hours to break down the old car to nothing

 

16 -18 hours to strip new donor to nothing and prep for cage

 

40 hours for the cage  and floor drop (if it takes less than this you're throwing it in, it's fitment is terrible and who knows how good the welds are)

 

100-120 hours for all body work and paint, complete reassembly of all components (drivetrain, interior, suspension, wiring, etc)

 

on the low end that's 172 hours at x amount per hour....depending on your location shop rate could cost you  $11,180-$17,200 for the labor alone.....not including donor and any other parts needed.....and some wonder how top flight cars cost $30-$40k  even $50k+ in some parts.....

 

yes they suck to do but it's only metal and life goes on thankfully for most that total a car.

[Jason J Ball]

I'm confused. How did it cost $500? Doesn't re-tub mean a new chassis with new cage?

 

I bought the tub, new drivers door, rear sub frame, and right rear corner suspension for around $500. I cut the cage at the welds, door bars at front down tubes and at the top of the main hoop. I cut and replaced the trunk braces since I had extra straight tube and had sheet material left over for chassis pads. This left me with (2) pieces, down tubes connected to the dash bar and the main hoop with door bars still attached. The problem is that I did not build boxes at the cage attachment points and the cage is lower by 1/2". I need to fix that at some point, this chassis is due for a new tub and I'll put a new cage in it next time. My labor is free and the whole build took me about 2 months. Its nice when you can do all the fab work yourself.

[davew]

Marc, you work too slow 

 

Strip old car, 6-8 hours

strip new car, 6-8 hours

fab cage, 25 hours

transfer old engine, trans, suspension, electronics etc, 25 hours

allignment dyno, whatever, 10 hours

 

I think we had less than 50 hours in transfering parts and finishing the car after the cage was installed.

 

I had a nice donor with a blown motor already here. Start to finish was less than 3 weeks.

 

Admittedly, that was no paint or bodywork.

 

I guess being a commision mechanic for 25 years makes me work fast !->

 

dave

[Bench Racer]

Marc, you work too slow 

 

I guess being a commision mechanic for 25 years makes me work fast !->

 

dave

Or taught you to be on the correct end of the whip.

 

PS

He does well on transmissions.

[Argus48]

Retub it.