21 replies to this topic

[Sphinx]

Do the AEM and Innovate gauges read the same?  Or is one more accurate than the other?  Another preferred brand?  I need to add a wideband to my car.  So, any advice is appreciated.

 

This is going into a '90.

[Diller]

From what I gather most of it is personal preference. I have been using AEM on this car and others and never had a problem or been drastically off from high end dyno probes. Works well with data systems and has pretty good customer service. I don't have a reason to think Innovate is any different but I have always used AEM.

[davew]

If possible, make it integrate with your data. Then you can know exactly what the reading is at points were you should not be watching the gauge

[Brandon]

Another recommendation I've seen here is to replace annually the sensor itself for whichever one you get.

For our racing purposes (and precision with the AFR), they do go afar with the readings for whatever reason.

 

Making it an annual maintenance item is an easy thing to cover.

 

Speaking of...gotta go get myself one...

[Diller]

Brandon, on 18 Apr 2017 - 2:12 PM, said:

Another recommendation I've seen here is to replace annually the sensor itself for whichever one you get.

For our racing purposes (and precision with the AFR), they do go afar with the readings for whatever reason.

 

Making it an annual maintenance item is an easy thing to cover.

 

Speaking of...gotta go get myself one...

 

 

I agree that the sensor must be replaced periodically but I think yearly may be a bit overkill for most. It won't hurt anything but I usually go about 3 years if I am not controlling an ECU with it or using it as the sole tuning AFR gauge. Good practice though.

[Jeff Wasilko]

I had lots of problems with the Innovate, particularly with getting the overheat error codes (E8 I think). I switched to the AEM gauge and sensor on both my car and my wife's car and haven't had problems. Both cars were on the dyno this spring and the AEM gauges were within .5 AFR of the dyno sensor.

[Ron Alan]

2nd the problems with the Innovate...had 2 and they both crapped out after a year. One would never get past and error code and when I called customer service I felt like I needed to be a computer engineer to go on line and try and diagnose or download something. The 2nd just stopped turning on...again no simple fix from customer service. I have them both in a box if anyone would like them!

Installed plug and play  AEM's in 3 cars and so far so good! At least they turn on and show numbers!

[Jim Drago]

None, repeat none of these sensors are accurate. 

 

Your best bet is check calibration oif the sensor with know gas that we test dyno sensors with and record the difference. For exmaple. I usually see a variiace of .4-.7, we have seen as high as 1.2 .. always in the wrong direction! 

 

usually a car reading 12.5 is actually 13.0-13.1. so the drivers want to lean out an already lean car

 

Jim

[Diller]

Jim Drago, on 18 Apr 2017 - 3:51 PM, said:

None, repeat none of these sensors are accurate. 

 

Your best bet is check calibration oif the sensor with know gas that we test dyno sensors with and record the difference. For exmaple. I usually see a variiace of .4-.7, we have seen as high as 1.2 .. always in the wrong direction! 

 

usually a car reading 12.5 is actually 13.0-13.1. so the drivers want to lean out an already lean car

 

Jim

 

This is true as well. As with any measurement tool there is measurement error and unless you want to spend big money on lab equipment, the tools we use are really for reference only. .

[Ron Alan]

Jim Drago, on 18 Apr 2017 - 3:51 PM, said:

None, repeat none of these sensors are accurate. 

 

Your best bet is check calibration oif the sensor with know gas that we test dyno sensors with and record the difference. For exmaple. I usually see a variiace of .4-.7, we have seen as high as 1.2 .. always in the wrong direction! 

 

usually a car reading 12.5 is actually 13.0-13.1. so the drivers want to lean out an already lean car

 

Jim

So then this begs the question...how often do dyno operators check their sensors? Can we always count on them? Is this a simple process?

For what it is worth and maybe it was just luck...2 cars I dynoed recently were within .1 of the dyno sensors. I would like to think they will not become off by .5? 

 

I would like to see a system that allowed you to see the AFR for each hole! When we see so many rod bearing faliures I often wonder if the main cause is a lean condition in one cylinder(injector?)which might cause detonation beating on the rod bearing and the eventual loss of oil pressure causing an overheat then seize of the rod to the crank?? But this wouldn't explain why we seem to always lose 3 or 4 hole?

[FTodaro]

I have ran the innovate for years, but have always adjusted as per Jim's instructions that it was reading rich by a factor of .5, other than that no reliability problems, but you do need to re calibrate frequently.

[Jeff Wasilko]

Ron Alan, on 18 Apr 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

I would like to see a system that allowed you to see the AFR for each hole! When we see so many rod bearing faliures I often wonder if the main cause is a lean condition in one cylinder(injector?)which might cause detonation beating on the rod bearing and the eventual loss of oil pressure causing an overheat then seize of the rod to the crank?? But this wouldn't explain why we seem to always lose 3 or 4 hole?

 

EGT would probably be the best way to do that.

[av8tor]

Ron Alan, on 18 Apr 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

So then this begs the question...how often do dyno operators check their sensors? Can we always count on them? Is this a simple process?

For what it is worth and maybe it was just luck...2 cars I dynoed recently were within .1 of the dyno sensors. I would like to think they will not become off by .5? 

 

I would like to see a system that allowed you to see the AFR for each hole! When we see so many rod bearing faliures I often wonder if the main cause is a lean condition in one cylinder(injector?)which might cause detonation beating on the rod bearing and the eventual loss of oil pressure causing an overheat then seize of the rod to the crank?? But this wouldn't explain why we seem to always lose 3 or 4 hole?

I do that on my Ducati's amazing how much different the back cylinder is from the front.  I think a wide band sensor in each exhaust runner would interfere with the flow so much it would be a disaster.  Good data, but bad power.  I am setting up Cylinder Head temp for each plug on my 1.8L ITS car. I will post any consistent temp deltas if they appear.

[Sphinx]

So, is it fair to say that the gauges are all accurate.  Only issue is the quality of the sensor.  I think most resellers are using the Bosch sensor in both applications.

[Diller]

Ron Alan, on 18 Apr 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

So then this begs the question...how often do dyno operators check their sensors? Can we always count on them? Is this a simple process?

For what it is worth and maybe it was just luck...2 cars I dynoed recently were within .1 of the dyno sensors. I would like to think they will not become off by .5? 

 

Totally depends on the owner of the dyno and equipment. Each system has a recommended re-calibration schedule. This is something to talk about when looking for a reputable tuner. 

 

Just as a side note. I haven't seen a SM engine make more power by going way too lean. Doesn't mean they don't exist but I haven't seen it. Usually there is a plateau of power and you can back the AFR to the fatter end of the plateau and just monitor your gauge for any wild swings.

 

Edit: If you are interested in learning way too much about EFI and tuning, read the book "Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems" by Greg Banish. He has been an EFI tuning engineer for multiple OEMs and does a great job of putting that knowledge into practical applications.

[davew]

Any gauge should be used as a reference point. I always had 50psi oil pressure, now I have 40. What happened? Did the gauge go bad? Is the motor going south? Am I low on oil?

 

I like 35 psi in my tires, but my buddy likes 38. But his gauge reads 2 pounds different then mine...... What should I run? What you like.

 

Dyno tuning should be done based on what that motor likes. Look at area under the curve and use AFR as a reference to make sure you are close. If AFR changes, look into why it changed, not jumping to adjustments.

 

Just my opinion

[Tom Sager]

Ron Alan, on 18 Apr 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

 

I would like to see a system that allowed you to see the AFR for each hole! When we see so many rod bearing faliures I often wonder if the main cause is a lean condition in one cylinder(injector?)which might cause detonation beating on the rod bearing and the eventual loss of oil pressure causing an overheat then seize of the rod to the crank?? But this wouldn't explain why we seem to always lose 3 or 4 hole?

 

I have thought on several occasions about rigging up an exhaust manifold with 4 bungs and 4 O2 sensors so that the car could be tuned for each cylinder (probably with injectors that have slight variances and different heat range plugs used as the tuning aids).  I doubt that's an original thought among this crowd.  Somebody has probably done it already. 

[Bench Racer]

Tom Sager, on 19 Apr 2017 - 5:26 PM, said:

I have thought on several occasions about rigging up an exhaust manifold with 4 bungs and 4 O2 sensors so that the car could be tuned for each cylinder (probably with injectors that have slight variances and different heat range plugs used as the tuning aids).  I doubt that's an original thought among this crowd.  Somebody has probably done it already. 

Tom, in my reading of 02 sensor in each exhaust it suggested because of the 02 size reading may be iffy. I just posted a thread on EGT, asked if anyone would care to share the exhaust info and offered Ron my two probe Westech exhaust temperature stuff. You also may borrow as long as I it's returned by 6/1/2017.

[Tom Sager]

Bench Racer, on 19 Apr 2017 - 5:54 PM, said:

Tom, in my reading of 02 sensor in each exhaust it suggested because of the 02 size reading may be iffy. I just posted a thread on EGT, asked if anyone would care to share the exhaust info and offered Ron my two probe Westech exhaust temperature stuff. You also may borrow as long as I it's returned by 6/1/2017.

 

That's a nice offer but I don't have plans to pursue this in the next few months. 

[Todd Green]

I have an Innovate (MTX-L) going to a gauge and data, been in my car since 2011.  Replaced the O2 sensor as a precaution once.  It uses the older 4.2 Bosch sensor(*).  Have a newer AEM  (4.9) in our enduro car that we put in last year.  Never had an issue with either.   Can't say as to how accurate they are, but they do seem to be consistent from looking at my traces.

 

Just recently put a Spartan 2 (4.9 as well) to go to a MegaSquirt.  I like that it allows you to calibrate it to the ECU (holds constant two values as it powers up).  Don't like the supply issues.  Took forever to get in stock and ship here. The one thing I don't like about the AEM is that it doesn't have a narrow band signal that's simulated like the other two.

 

* Edit: The latest Innovates use the 4.9 of course.  The advantage being that you aren't supposed to have to manually calibrate them.