94 replies to this topic

[luvin_the_rings]

Despite my poor references in my last post, I'd like to make sure my point does not get lost.  If there were more SCCA schools on the west coast, more people would be racing SCCA, and less contact would be happening on track.  

 

I'd like to see any information on how exactly driver schools cost so much money to the organization.   I just don't buy it yet. Driver Schools cost almost double entry fees at NASA events in So Cal. 

 

Wheel, my last comments weren't directed to insult your licencing capabilities, I was mere using your post out of context as an example.     I was under the impression that you were not watching the pupil in question under other wheel to wheel driving scenarios.

 

Also, I am not insulting drivers who came from karting, or their skills or respect.  Karting kids reference was fueled by an incident  last weekend when I got cut off terribly and had to dodge the crazy kid to did come from karting.  I don't mean to spread that incident onto the rest of the drivers or teen drivers who came from karting.  It does teach driving technique needed to be safer and faster in wheel to wheel situations.  

 

+1 on a bigger social media presence.  I get one SCCA a month, maybe on my news feed.  

 

-Z

[Jim Creighton]

In the SEDiv, track rentals go from $5500 per day to $20,000 per day. The $5500 per day does do a drivers school since it is a region owned track. But, the other regions have a hard time paying $20,000 to $40,000 track rental plus SCCA sanction, insurance, EV, ambulance,  etc. Start dividing those rental fees by 25 students and figure the entry fee. No way to make ends meet anymore for stand alone school. Even split school can't make it.

[dstevens]

Despite my poor references in my last post, I'd like to make sure my point does not get lost.  If there were more SCCA schools on the west coast, more people would be racing SCCA, and less contact would be happening on track.  

 

I'd like to see any information on how exactly driver schools cost so much money to the organization.   I just don't buy it yet. Driver Schools cost almost double entry fees at NASA events in So Cal. 

 

Wheel, my last comments weren't directed to insult your licencing capabilities, I was mere using your post out of context as an example.     I was under the impression that you were not watching the pupil in question under other wheel to wheel driving scenarios.

 

Also, I am not insulting drivers who came from karting, or their skills or respect.  Karting kids reference was fueled by an incident  last weekend when I got cut off terribly and had to dodge the crazy kid to did come from karting.  I don't mean to spread that incident onto the rest of the drivers or teen drivers who came from karting.  It does teach driving technique needed to be safer and faster in wheel to wheel situations.  

 

+1 on a bigger social media presence.  I get one SCCA a month, maybe on my news feed.  

 

-Z

Your claims of more schools automatically equalling more drivers that have less contact are an opinion not a fact.  I don't see it as too well informed an opinion.  You've been told by people with recent, direct experience organizing club events that schools lost money yet you doubt it with no basis on which to make an informed judgement.   So Cal is a bit different at as they own Buttonwillow.  But as Jim says the sunk costs in track rental are the big expenses along with support services that may have to be purchased and not volunteered or donated.  A big part of the issue is the business model and direction of the sanction has not progressed in years, perhaps decades.

[ChrisA]

In the SEDiv, track rentals go from $5500 per day to $20,000 per day. The $5500 per day does do a drivers school since it is a region owned track. But, the other regions have a hard time paying $20,000 to $40,000 track rental plus SCCA sanction, insurance, EV, ambulance,  etc. Start dividing those rental fees by 25 students and figure the entry fee. No way to make ends meet anymore for stand alone school. Even split school can't make it.

 

Jim, would it be possible to partner with a well run HPDE organization to help off-set the track rental cost. In my area (VA/NC), partnering with the PCA or Chin Motorsports, during an Advanced DE, might work well. It would offer PCA'ers opportunity to get a transferable Comp Lic., bring exposure to both SCCA & PCA racing and hurt neither base. And, the DE participants would get exposed to a possible next step for them. It would likely need to be 3-day course to get the required seat time, but it's something that should be considered.

 

I did one of the Roebling schools, with you & Toni. That whole month of Feb. I was worried about getting snowed in and missing out. And, the thought of doing the Sebring school in July... No way!

[Peter Olivola]

While it would certainly be a challenge for an SCCA Region to work with another sanctioning body, there is extensive precedent for it.  There are two equal questions that need to be answered:

 

1.  Is the SCCA Region willing to do it.

2.  Is the other sanctioning body willing to do it.

 

Behind those questions is the vast complexity of organization structure, individual personalities and collective agendas.  If the will is there, on both sides, the rest is details, but getting to the point where both organizations are willing involves a lot of heavy lifting.

 

Jim, would it be possible to partner with a well run HPDE organization to help off-set the track rental cost. In my area (VA/NC), partnering with the PCA or Chin Motorsports, during an Advanced DE, might work well. It would offer PCA'ers opportunity to get a transferable Comp Lic., bring exposure to both SCCA & PCA racing and hurt neither base. And, the DE participants would get exposed to a possible next step for them. It would likely need to be 3-day course to get the required seat time, but it's something that should be considered.

 

I did one of the Roebling schools, with you & Toni. That whole month of Feb. I was worried about getting snowed in and missing out. And, the thought of doing the Sebring school in July... No way!

[Danica Davison]

How do you know when the lighter turnout weekend will occur?  

 

I think it's pretty easy if you just look at historical data. Every FL region race that isn't the Homestead January Majors can do this because they don't get car counts.  Florida region also cancelled their PBIR race this last weekend because they had EIGHT entries.

 

Central Florida region has Daytona and Sebring which always pull lots of cars, but even then, some weekends are lighter than others every year.  The August Daytona race is a much bigger turnout than the September race because you have the Runoffs and the SIC going on in the same month. So, you can add a PDX or something similar in replacement of another group that was put together so there aren't only 15 cars on track

[Peter Olivola]

Adding a PDX is common practice.  If the region wants to do it. But PDX and race groups are not ok to run together.  How does that avoid the 15 car race group (unless you're suggesting jamming incompatible classes together.)

 

I think it's pretty easy if you just look at historical data. Every FL region race that isn't the Homestead January Majors can do this because they don't get car counts.  Florida region also cancelled their PBIR race this last weekend because they had EIGHT entries.

 

Central Florida region has Daytona and Sebring which always pull lots of cars, but even then, some weekends are lighter than others every year.  The August Daytona race is a much bigger turnout than the September race because you have the Runoffs and the SIC going on in the same month. So, you can add a PDX or something similar in replacement of another group that was put together so there aren't only 15 cars on track

[Ron Alan]

Despite my poor references in my last post, I'd like to make sure my point does not get lost.  If there were more SCCA schools on the west coast, more people would be racing SCCA, and less contact would be happening on track.  

 

I'd like to see any information on how exactly driver schools cost so much money to the organization.   I just don't buy it yet. Driver Schools cost almost double entry fees at NASA events in So Cal. 

 

Wheel, my last comments weren't directed to insult your licencing capabilities, I was mere using your post out of context as an example.     I was under the impression that you were not watching the pupil in question under other wheel to wheel driving scenarios.

 

Also, I am not insulting drivers who came from karting, or their skills or respect.  Karting kids reference was fueled by an incident  last weekend when I got cut off terribly and had to dodge the crazy kid to did come from karting.  I don't mean to spread that incident onto the rest of the drivers or teen drivers who came from karting.  It does teach driving technique needed to be safer and faster in wheel to wheel situations.  

 

+1 on a bigger social media presence.  I get one SCCA a month, maybe on my news feed.  

 

-Z

More schools equates to more racers and less contact?  

 

I explained to you...you cannot compare NASA(for profit) to SCCA(club)  when it comes to costs...apples and oranges! And for what it is worth...you will spend way more money to get a license with NASA if you go through there progressive program! At $650 for 3 days and a LOT of seat time...SCCA NORCAL is a freaking bargain at Thunderhill every Feb/March! 

 

Sorry, you did insult the kids! BUT...like any "group", there are mistakes made and lessons learned every event! Since you race with NASA...it is very easy to have a face to face with your series leader and the other driver if this was an incident you felt needed some attention! Hopefully that occurred and the young driver understood his mistake...if in fact it was poor judgement. I do this every race weekend up north!

 

 

SCCA is 20+ years behind...but like and good government program, once the recipients are used to a routine, it is very hard to change that on them or god forbid take anything away  

 

I'm an equal opportunist...I play with both Organizations...and fully understand what I will be getting when I attend! Both are very strong in Norcal with very good SM fields in all events.

 

Denny...I get your point about your NASA experiences. The wine and cheese social at SCCA is not quite the same as the all you can eat and drink beer feast on a sat night at NASA...god bless those 6 figure millennials for bringing their money and girlfriends

But I will never complain about the 10 minutes of wasted (QUIET)time between SCCA run groups!

[luvin_the_rings]

One licencing school per year in Thunderhill isn't gonna cut it.  You need at least 2 weekends per region.  That's two in NorCal and 2 in SoCal. That's awesome that its a bargain, but i'd rather just go to the next NASA event in my region and get the ball rolling.  Hell that's what me and 3 of my friends did, and we'll be starting our 3rd season in NASA and have yet to set foot in an SCCA event, when that was originally our goal.   Why didn't we go to the SCCA school?  The only one was was far away and too far into the future, oh and it was full...

 

 I understand the SCCA and NASA structures are totally different, but same tracks, same cars, hell many same regional racers.  Maybe SCCA should take some notes when it comes to the DE programs.  NASA SM fields have been growing out here, and SCCA fields have been shrinking.  Sure you don't have to adapt every single policy, but, again, my point stands:

 

More easily accessible DE programs means more incoming regional racers.  It also means better informed regional drivers.

[Jamz14]

I have a real problem with this.  Sure the kids coming form karts have raced side by side before.  But that says nothing to how respectfully they do so.  Neither does their behavior for a few laps while your observing them on an AutoX course.  Some of the most disrespectful driving that has endangered our season thus far has come from the Teen Miata Challenge kids who came from karting.  Dangerous low-percentage moves is common place when these teens are trying to pass the mid field drivers on an inverted start or after a mistake from the "experienced teen." 
 
To me Its so hilarious that we are OK with giving these karting guys licences right off the bat, allowing them to look at the GCR while they fill out the test e-mailed to them.  Yet we're talking about a contact steward and how the class has too much damage and contact.  We are so soft on the rules when licencing new competition level drivers, yet so hard on the rules of contact.  
 
Here's a thought, if there was mandatory SCCA schooling for all competition licence drivers applicants, the contact when those drivers get into the wheel-to-wheel scenarios will be decreased. Unless you raced wheel to wheel last season in SCCA or NASA, you go through school and you pass before you race.  
 
-Z

I respect you but this is total bullshit. The contact and sketchy driving in our region happens more from the "adults". Most of the Teen drivers here have twice the wheel to wheel racing than the adults. It is adult drivers that think they are as fast the teens that overdrive because their egos can't handle being slower. Yes there have been incidents of poor driving and decisions on the teens part. But at a lower percentage than the older drivers. With that said though I find all our drivers in our region to be above-average respect and good driving

[Jamz14]

In addition I think our regional leaders, teen Mazda challenge mentors, NASA officials, and the other fellow drivers have done a great job in mentoring the Teen Mazda challenge drivers.

 

These comments are very damaging to the region. There has been momentum in the last few years of the TMC moving races out of the SOCAL region because of perceived attitudes towards the TMC drivers. People from NASA and TMC have been working hard to reverse that momentum understanding that the TMC drivers add to our car counts in a big way and add to the competition level at the events. This will not help that situation. This will be heard by TMC and it will fuel the drive to move the series races to NORCAL region only.

 

If your goal is to keep the car counts low in SOCAL and to only compete against your fellow adult drivers and not necessarily the best drivers in the region, this will achieve that goal.

[Ron Alan]

One licencing school per year in Thunderhill isn't gonna cut it.  You need at least 2 weekends per region.  That's two in NorCal and 2 in SoCal. That's awesome that its a bargain, but i'd rather just go to the next NASA event in my region and get the ball rolling.  Hell that's what me and 3 of my friends did, and we'll be starting our 3rd season in NASA and have yet to set foot in an SCCA event, when that was originally our goal.   Why didn't we go to the SCCA school?  The only one was was far away and too far into the future, oh and it was full...

 

 I understand the SCCA and NASA structures are totally different, but same tracks, same cars, hell many same regional racers.  Maybe SCCA should take some notes when it comes to the DE programs.  NASA SM fields have been growing out here, and SCCA fields have been shrinking.  Sure you don't have to adapt every single policy, but, again, my point stands:

 

More easily accessible DE programs means more incoming regional racers.  It also means better informed regional drivers.

Ok...I cant argue with a complete lack of experience. Come back and read this thread in 3 years and see if your thoughts have changed! You are quick to be critical of SCCA but it sounds like you havent even run with them? Are you hanging out with Rob?

[Jim Creighton]

Actually, Bucc Reg who owns Roebling Road did a partner drivers school with SVRA this year. I was not able attend due to a schedule conflict, but I heard it went rather well. But, this is the Region that owns the track and can afford to not pay itself the track rental. They do have to pay EV & wrecker plus SCCA fixed rate fee.

 

I know some regions tried putting a PDX or enduro with a drivers school, but I don't believe it paid the bills. This is one of the prime reasons we see drivers with less race experience getting licenses. There's no where to get real race time.  And the Majors had cost many regions their regional race programs further compounding the issue. We may need to look at enforcing the "rookie" status marking on cars. At least then you'll know they're a newbie.

[Tom Sager]

Actually, Bucc Reg who owns Roebling Road did a partner drivers school with SVRA this year. I was not able attend due to a schedule conflict, but I heard it went rather well. But, this is the Region that owns the track and can afford to not pay itself the track rental. They do have to pay EV & wrecker plus SCCA fixed rate fee.

 

I know some regions tried putting a PDX or enduro with a drivers school, but I don't believe it paid the bills. This is one of the prime reasons we see drivers with less race experience getting licenses. There's no where to get real race time.  And the Majors had cost many regions their regional race programs further compounding the issue. We may need to look at enforcing the "rookie" status marking on cars. At least then you'll know they're a newbie.

I always liked the past practice of novice stripes and to me it makes sense to make it as easy as possible to get a competition license but still require new drivers to complete their first couple of licensed weekends at the regional/divisional level while still under some observation.

 

Seems to me that more new drivers years ago came up through the solo ranks.  Doesn't seem like so many are doing that now.  Maybe Solo drivers and PDX drivers should earn financial credits to driver's school of for their first couple race entries after school as an incentive to make the jump.

[luvin_the_rings]

I respect you but this is total bullshit. The contact and sketchy driving in our region happens more from the "adults". Most of the Teen drivers here have twice the wheel to wheel racing than the adults. It is adult drivers that think they are as fast the teens that overdrive because their egos can't handle being slower. Yes there have been incidents of poor driving and decisions on the teens part. But at a lower percentage than the older drivers. With that said though I find all our drivers in our region to be above-average respect and good driving

 

 

Jams, you're right.  I was talking about only one incident and incorrectly using it to stereotype the whole TMC group.