19 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

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[Johnny D]

Congrats to Nick on his 2nd NASA Western States Championship Win !!

 

PROVISIONAL Results

https://racehero.io/...ults/1073744921

 

J~

[Danica Davison]

Congrats to Nick on his 2nd NASA Western States Championship Win !!
 
PROVISIONAL Results
https://racehero.io/...ults/1073744921
 
J~

 

Man Drama Facebook page shows he was Penalized for jumping the start and was moved to second. So if true, Tristan Littlehale is the champ

[Jim Drago]

If that's accurate that is like being sentenced to jail for 12 months for speeding. No common sense in applying a penalty IMO? He wont by 5+ seconds.

Jim

[Jamz14]

If that's accurate that is like being sentenced to jail for 12 months for speeding. No common sense in applying a penalty IMO? He wont by 5+ seconds.

Jim

I totally agree JIm. Nick has been beating everyone all year. With or without a jump start, he would still have beaten us. I'm pretty sure he has won every race this year.

 

Devils advocate - What should the penalty have been? Keep in mind, I believe NASA has predetermined penalties in place for certain infractions.

 

Nick, Greg - Congrats on an outstanding year!!!!!!!! You guys have executed on everything flawlessly. You are the west coast champions and the TMC champions!!

[Danica Davison]

Devils advocate - What should the penalty have been? Keep in mind, I believe NASA has predetermined penalties in place for certain infractions.

 

I don't think there should have been one at all. I would fully support the penalty if he jumped the start from the 2nd row or back and won ... but the fact that he was on pole and consistently ran like half a second faster almost the whole race ... it didn't effect the race at all.  For those reasons, I think some professional judgement should have been made by the race steward, and no penalty should have been given.  To lose a championship race for that ... that SUCKS.

[Jim Drago]

 

Devils advocate - What should the penalty have been? Keep in mind, I believe NASA has predetermined penalties in place for certain infractions.

 

 

IMO common sense should over rule the rule book in certain cases, to me this would be one of those cases. I don't know any of the players.. not playing favorites. Just feel that would be the right thing to do. 

[FTodaro]

Does anyone have a link to a video of the start. I would like to see what was worth that penalty. So is this a poll sitter rolling on the throttle at the start or what? I know that is how i start.

[Johnny D]

Start, he's 2 cars out front coming out of 1

https://www.facebook...55604704650742/

https://www.facebook...54788898065656/

 

End (the black car in the 1st second/frame is Nick)

https://www.facebook...55615394649673/

 

 

He was just spanking everyone.

J~

[Ron Alan]

Here are some facts...

 

Does anyone have a link to a video of the start. I would like to see what was worth that penalty. So is this a poll sitter rolling on the throttle at the start or what? I know that is how i start.

I did not see Nicks video but the Race Director did and said the pace was steady...then full throttle in 2nd gear...shift to 3rd as the flag came out. Maybe 2 seconds? 

 

I was on the 4th floor with race control and was watching the field...as I saw Nick go I thought oh shit...Tristan missed a shift! But in that brief second as my eyes focused to the starters stand(in my line of vision) to the cars...I saw the flag come out.

It was a late flag and when this happens at Thunderhill, Miatas are full throttle with no lift through turn 1...often going as far as turn 5 two wide! Nick was clear of the field by several car lengths at turn 1 with a clean normal line while P2 and P3 went side by side...the rest is history.

 

So now we have a rules violation(determined by the Race Director and other officials)and as written by the rules a penalty that is discretionary. He ruled a 1 position penalty.

 

 

I don't think there should have been one at all. I would fully support the penalty if he jumped the start from the 2nd row or back and won ... but the fact that he was on pole and consistently ran like half a second faster almost the whole race ... it didn't effect the race at all.  For those reasons, I think some professional judgement should have been made by the race steward, and no penalty should have been given.  To lose a championship race for that ... that SUCKS.

I agree 100% with your last sentence! But you would agree with me we race in sanctioning bodies that are governed by rules correct? And those rules should be applied across the board regardless of what led up to the infraction or what happened or may have happened after correct? I dont think Danny gained any advantage by breaking the rules and clearly he was faster than you at Indy and should have been slapped on the wrist and given his podium...agree? For that matter at Indy, Chris was on pole and clearly the fastest every day...why race? Ok, Ok...you get my point. And I realize you are being critical of the penalty not the infraction.

 

So lets change the scenario. 

P2 Jumps the start and has an unmolested run through turn 1. P4 gets along side the pole sitter and they go side by side through 1. Unfortunately at the exit they touch tires(racing incident) which sends them both out into the grass. They re-enter at the back of the field and still manage to race back to a top 10 finish. How did this jumped start by the P2 starter affect the outcome? Should he not be penalized because P1 was going to take out P4 anyways and he was going to win regardless? Is NASA to determine a penalty by the outcome or assumed outcome?

 

Here is my point...the jumped start altered what was to come. Any who feel the penalty was uncalled for put yourself in P2(or P3/4). Do you want the opportunity to beat P1 thru turn 1 and take the early lead into turn 2 even though he may pass you latter? Do you want the opportunity to not lose P1's draft as you did the day before and finish on his bumper at least? Do you want the opportunity by not losing the draft to fill up P1's mirror all race and maybe force him to make a mistake? Oh wait...I'm sure you think you'll go ahead and spot P1 a clean 1st lap while you battle 3 other cars and spot him 2 seconds!

 

If NASA does nothing I can already see the next appeal being written siting this precedent! "I was going to win anyways...therefore I can do it penalty free as you have already ruled!

 

Nick is a great young man and a hell of a driver. I believe he has(or will)accept this and be ready for the next race!

[Danica Davison]

I agree 100% with your last sentence! But you would agree with me we race in sanctioning bodies that are governed by rules correct? And those rules should be applied across the board regardless of what led up to the infraction or what happened or may have happened after correct? I dont think Danny gained any advantage by breaking the rules and clearly he was faster than you at Indy and should have been slapped on the wrist and given his podium...agree? For that matter at Indy, Chris was on pole and clearly the fastest every day...why race? Ok, Ok...you get my point. And I realize you are being critical of the penalty not the infraction.
 
So lets change the scenario. 
P2 Jumps the start and has an unmolested run through turn 1. P4 gets along side the pole sitter and they go side by side through 1. Unfortunately at the exit they touch tires(racing incident) which sends them both out into the grass. They re-enter at the back of the field and still manage to race back to a top 10 finish. How did this jumped start by the P2 starter affect the outcome? Should he not be penalized because P1 was going to take out P4 anyways and he was going to win regardless? Is NASA to determine a penalty by the outcome or assumed outcome?
 
Here is my point...the jumped start altered what was to come. Any who feel the penalty was uncalled for put yourself in P2(or P3/4). Do you want the opportunity to beat P1 thru turn 1 and take the early lead into turn 2 even though he may pass you latter? Do you want the opportunity to not lose P1's draft as you did the day before and finish on his bumper at least? Do you want the opportunity by not losing the draft to fill up P1's mirror all race and maybe force him to make a mistake? Oh wait...I'm sure you think you'll go ahead and spot P1 a clean 1st lap while you battle 3 other cars and spot him 2 seconds!
 
If NASA does nothing I can already see the next appeal being written siting this precedent! "I was going to win anyways...therefore I can do it penalty free as you have already ruled!
 
Nick is a great young man and a hell of a driver. I believe he has(or will)accept this and be ready for the next race!

 
Ron, I absolutely see your point. I always try to look at both sides ... and I do understand your point. I am just under opinion that it didn't really do anything in this specific race. But I still would like to see some in car video as I am willing to change my mind. The links Dirkson posted didn't work for me to view.  And yes, this is obviously something very difficult to penalize, because what is the best penalty for it? We can debate that all day long. But, all I know is he appeared to be the class of the field all weekend, and definitely got robbed.

 

To this point:
"I dont think Danny gained any advantage by breaking the rules and clearly he was faster than you at Indy and should have been slapped on the wrist and given his podium...agree?"

 

Disagree 100% . If he had the right parts on the car, it would have been an even playing field, and I would have been faster. That is my story and I am sticking to it

[Blake Clements]

A time penalty for the amount he lead on the first lap is an appropriate penalty.

[MPR22]

Good arguments by all, finally a healthy discussion about racing and rules.  

[Jim Drago]

A time penalty for the amount he lead on the first lap is an appropriate penalty.

OR EVEN DOUBLE THAT

[Johnny D]

The jump wouldn't justify a restart by the stewards, correct ?

 

And the stewards said nothing, it was a protest, correct ?

 

J~

[Johnny D]

Mazda Motorsports NASA West Recap

 

 

The 2017 NASA Western States Championships presented by Toyo Tires will be remembered as the year of the fire.  A multi-acre grassfire delayed the Sunday morning schedule by almost three hours.  When the smoke cleared, it was a hot battle between 29 Spec Miata racers chasing an opportunity for the $100,000 Mazda Road to 24 (MRT24) Shootout.

 

Tristan Littlehale won the Spec Miata championship race after Nick Sommers was penalized for an on-track infraction.  Both Littlehale and Sommers are now qualified for the MRT24 Shootout.  Sommers had already secured the West Coast Region Teen Mazda Challenge championship.

 

Joining Littlehale and Sommers on the podium was Matt Million.  Roy Fulmer IV was the hard charger of the race, moving from 27th to sixth.  Sommers, Million, and Fulmer are all Teen Mazda Challenge competitors. 

 

In the NP01 class, where all of the Elan prototypes are powered by Mazda MZR engines, Brian Lock scored the win over Jeremy Croiset and Chad Plavan.

 

In the ST4 open class, Austin Newmark won both qualifying races, but missed the pre-grid cutoff time and had to start from pit lane. Austin drove his Mazda Miata through the field of BMWs, Porsches, Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Minis, and Chevrolets to finish second, just 3.465 seconds behind the winner.

 

“Our hats are off to Tristan Littlehale, Brian Lock, and all of our NASA Racers in Spec Miata, NP01, and the many PT and TT classes,” said David Cook, business development manager, Mazda Motorsports. “We had a great weekend at Thunderhill and we can’t wait to wrap up the year with NASA at Sebring in two weeks.”

 

The NASA Eastern States Championships will take place on October 19-22 in Sebring Florida. A select group of the competing racers from both NASA championships will be eligible for the Mazda Road to 24 shootout, seeking to earn a Mazda Scholarship to compete in the 2018 Battery Tender Global Mazda MX-5 Cup presented by BFGoodrich Tires.  The shootout will take place in early December.  Shootout details will be announced at a later date.

[Ron Alan]

The jump wouldn't justify a restart by the stewards, correct ?

 

And the stewards said nothing, it was a protest, correct ?

 

J~

With hindsight a restart may have been in order. But given the nature of Miata starts and what officials have the authority to call a restart...it happened quickly and hard to know why they were seeing what they were seeing. But it did raise eyebrows which set the wheels in motion for the officials to look at. No protest was necessary as it was already being reviewed.

 

Bottom line is no movement(acceleration) prior to the green flag was what was being reviewed.

[Johnny D]

Thanks

 

J~

[powerss]

Ron

 

It seems like the rules provide for some additional discretion.

 

20.10 Start/ Restart Jumping Jumping the start or restart is defined as leaving the starting/restarting position (but, with your correct group, in a split start situation) before the green flag drops. If a competitor jumps the start, he/she will be penalized at the Race Director’s discretion. Any movement after the green flag has been raised, until it is dropped, will be considered a “Jump Start.” Very slight infractions may warrant a warning the first time for the season. Repeat offenders should be punished.

 

Was Nick warned previously in the week or earlier in the year?

 

Really just curious.

[Ron Alan]

A time penalty for the amount he lead on the first lap is an appropriate penalty.

Time penalty is not a bad idea to have in the rules as an option...but it would have to have teeth. I think +10 sec minimum to start?

 

 

Ron

 

It seems like the rules provide for some additional discretion.

 

20.10 Start/ Restart Jumping Jumping the start or restart is defined as leaving the starting/restarting position (but, with your correct group, in a split start situation) before the green flag drops. If a competitor jumps the start, he/she will be penalized at the Race Director’s discretion. Any movement after the green flag has been raised, until it is dropped, will be considered a “Jump Start.” Very slight infractions may warrant a warning the first time for the season. Repeat offenders should be punished.

 

Was Nick warned previously in the week or earlier in the year?

 

Really just curious.

My guess is the Race Director was fully aware of this portion of the rule...and my 2nd guess is "very slight" was not what he and others saw. But I was not involved in the discussions nor have I viewed the video's...only speculation on my part. What was said to me after the decision and what I saw first hand(as I already posted)are what I know for sure.

 

To be very clear...though I may agree with the final decision...I'm not gloating or happy about it. In the end, there was only one decision that changed the final outcome.