73 replies to this topic

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

How tall are you Dennis? I ask cause we have a racer in our area who is 6ft5in and uses a Hans comfortably. His seat is a Sparco. I understand it was not straight forward to make it work but he fits in with room to spare.

Cnj

Yep, that would be me. I have a Sparco Pro Adv with a hans and I have enough room to drive comfortably.

Dennis, not really wanting to get dragged into this debate, if you have any specific questions about size/fit seat type for tall drivers with a HANS, drop me a PM and I will help you where I can.

[Bench Racer]

HANS is worn universally in my racing circles.

Jaun, might you have added to your statement HANS is worn universally along with a lateral load reduction devise in my racing circles. A HANS by it's self doesen't get the job done.

Tom, have you tried on a DeFnder, no lateral load reduction devise required

[Juan Pineda]

Absolutely side net and/or head restraint seats are important. They are required for NASA.

RE: DeFnder, they are no longer on the SFI 38.1 approved list:

http://www.sfifounda....com/manuf.html

-Juan

[dstevens]

RE: DeFnder, they are no longer on the SFI 38.1 approved list:

http://www.sfifounda....com/manuf.html

This has been brought up on a few other forums. Defnder is selling previously approved devices. Here is a blurb of what you can expect if you ask SFI about it. (emphasis mine)

"Thank you for your email. Defnder is not listed on the SFI 38.1 manufacturer list because they are not currently participating in that program, i.e., no current testing. However, Defnder isn’t producing new restraints. They are still selling existing inventory that was certified when their testing was current, which is completely allowable by the SFI Program."

I didn't get a Defnder because of the tracks on the local circuit, as in the NASCAR touring series, they don't use 38.1 but do have a list that includes HANs, R3 and another I can't recall.

[Tom Hampton]

This has been brought up on a few other forums. Defnder is selling previously approved devices. Here is a blurb of what you can expect if you ask SFI about it. (emphasis mine)



I didn't get a Defnder because of the tracks on the local circuit, as in the NASCAR touring series, they don't use 38.1 but do have a list that includes HANs, R3 and another I can't recall.

Yup...by me.

http://mazdaracers.c...ch=1

It's been a while since I got that response. I might try giving them another call.

[Juan Pineda]

Sorry. The account on that thread makes Defnder sound flaky -- can't quote any names, fully **intend** to recertify **in the future**. Perhaps better to trust your neck to a company that demonstrates more continuity and commitment? Just a thought. -Juan

[dstevens]

I understand they manufactured a specific amount and bought tags for those units. They simply haven't made any since. I doubt they sell that many compared to HANs and Safety Solutions/Simpson. I missed in the off season Simpson bought Safety Solutions Racing. Bottom line is SFI says if it's been certified, it's still certified.

[Tom Hampton]

Sorry. The account on that thread makes Defnder sound flaky -- can't quote any names, fully **intend** to recertify **in the future**. Perhaps better to trust your neck to a company that demonstrates more continuity and commitment? Just a thought. -Juan

I understand what you are saying, but two thing:

1. I don't trust my neck to companies. I trust it to certified products.

2. I was not asked to not quote any names. I chose not to, because I did not request permission to do so. That is my own ethic, there.

Perhaps they sound flakey to you.. but, i am the one that spoke to them on the phone. That was not my take on my conversation.

[KentCarter]

I understand what you are saying, but two thing:

1. I don't trust my neck to companies. I trust it to certified products.
...

Then you don't understand the certification process, I'm afraid.

[Juan Pineda]

Tom,

You should not trust your neck *solely* to the SFI certification. Consider SFI as more of a benchmark and sanity check. Like any benchmark it does not tell the full story: consider HP vs. Torque -- you can build an engine that exhibits superior HP, but has lousy torque (area under the curve) and thus has inferior performance.

HANS and Safety Solutions have studied the effectiveness and safety of their devices well beyond anything that SFI 38.1 measures. For example, HANS has compared injuries with and withouot HANS over multiple Indycar seasons. These companies have a huge body of knowledge here to build superior safety in their products and that is why the pro racing organizations specify them. The little guys don't have this level of analysis of their products. Surely at some point the info will be out there so that anyone can build a safe H&N device. But that's not where the industry is yet.

Marketing companies talk up a good line. IMO, you should not be swayed by the marketing pitches (or customer support dialog.) Much better to trust your neck to the companies and products vetted by the likes of F1 and NASCAR. Something to consider.

-Juan

[Keith Novak]

1. I don't trust my neck to companies. I trust it to certified products.

I while back, I read the certification requirements in detail. I deal with other kinds of similar certification daily so I wanted to see how it stacked up against dynamic sled tests in other industries. As part of the process, an engineer representing the company is the one who witnesses the test, reviews the data, signs off on the test and provides that data to the SFI foundation so in the case of SFI 38.1, to trust the certified product, you must trust the company.

[Tom Hampton]

Then you don't understand the certification process, I'm afraid.

That's a bit presumptuous. I've been an engineer for a very long time in many different fields. Practically everything I've ever designed and offered for sale has been certified by at least one organization, if not more. I'm fully cognizant of the ways that certification works, and the ease with which a pass can be earned by an inferior product. I've had products fail certification of one type or another, and know how easy it would be to "patch" the product to "just pass the test." Heck, I've fired engineers for doing just that. The reaction of the relevant engineers is governed by their own individual ethics, and to a lesser extent the ethics of their superiors.

My point is that NO company should ever be trusted. Trust is a characteristic of a relationship between idividuals who can enter into a mutual ethical contract. without the concept of reciprocation, any such attribution to a company is unfounded and misplaced.

so in the case of SFI 38.1, to trust the certified product, you must trust the company.

It goes deeper than the company...you must trust the engineer. "The company" is a very poor stand-in for "the engineer".

[Elliott Skeer]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

That just made my day!!! XD wrong enemy

[Keith Novak]

It goes deeper than the company...you must trust the engineer. "The company" is a very poor stand-in for "the engineer".

True, but you don't know the engineer. I forget the details now but I remember reading it and being suprised by the lack of credentials specified. The thought struck me, "You mean an HVAC guy could sign off on this and one that isn't even licensed?" That being the case, in some regards you have to trust that the company picked someone reputable and who is qualified to make that kind of determination, not the guy you fired for rigging a "successful" test.