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#81
FTodaro

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I completely agree. With almost one year of being allowed to run either, hopefully any changes needed will be figured by the time all are required to update. Early adopters of this and any changes have to accept some risk to possible changes adding cost. More risk adverse wait a little for bugs for bugs to be shook out. 

But you know we are all sitting here looking at this 1100.00 investment sitting on the bench waiting for an install will make the wait difficult. Some people have shocks off and waiting for a decision on this.

 

What are people's opinions on the necessity of gluing down the spring insulators in the top of the hats. I have done it both ways, Gluing and let them float.


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#82
Steve Scheifler

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We’ve done it both ways as well but the only times I’ve found damage to the insulator (isolator?) is with them floating. The damage itself wasn’t of particular concern but implied that it and the spring weren’t always correctly positioned and seated after a droop condition. Gluing it makes one less thing to get misaligned.
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#83
Jim Drago

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I like gluing them as the spring seems to always seat correctly. Not glued if not paying attention when scaling they can be off center and cause issues. I really don't see any negatives to gluing?  The best thing for this despite other claims is to buy a $10 tube of windshield urethane..   the only thing that removes that stuff from your hands is time :)


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#84
LarryKing

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the only thing that removes that stuff from your hands is time

Nitrile gloves?  :optimist:


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#85
Pat Mcg

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Great info.  Shock POTs may be a popular new toy this season for many. 

 

Are you talking about this product?  Or something similar?

https://www.lefthand...idgroup=2513826



#86
38bfast

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Are you talking about this product?  Or something similar?

https://www.lefthand...idgroup=2513826

https://www.pegasusa...?Product=MC-206


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#87
RWP80000

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Here is a DIY approach;

 

The link below is an image of the rotary potentiometer used to measure the Right Rear shock travel on our SM car.  The "pot" is mounted to the rear sub-frame with linkage connected to the rear upper control arm. Sensor output provides a 0-5 volt signal which is input to our AIM data system.  We use one sensor at each shock position.  Custom calibration curves were generated to produce an output relative to the shock shaft position through the full range of suspension movement.

 

This sensor is an OEM (Continental Teves) part as used on Jeep Grand Cherokee's beginning in the 2011 model year. It is used for controlling the optional air suspension system which adjusts vehicle ride height based on selectable operating modes.

 

These sensors (4) have been adapted and in use on our SM vehicle since the 2012 season.  They have proven to be very robust and reliable with a compact and well protected mounting location.  The RH/LF threaded "throttle shaft linkage" components make it easy to adjust the output curve to correlate the ride height output value as the distance (gap) from the jounce bumper with negative values indicating the amount of jounce bumper compression.

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!...4sCPcTXcp6JSw8g



#88
Bench Racer

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Very interseting this repeated data below presented by a Spec Miata driver and posted within this thread previously and there are no comments. Very selective by anyone involved with shock and especially surprising no one from the SMAC or other notable Spec Miata owner/driver who normally post or any of the notable Spec Miata drivers lurking has made a comment. The continuous notable comments from the Shock Team is the shaker rig unsettles the car, use the normal ride height, BUT STAY OFF THE ORANGE BUMP STOP. 

 

Information from a Spec Miata driver with the Penske parts.

"For the install, I put the rings and sleeves at the same height as my old rings were at, glued the rubber pads from my old shock top hats to the underside of the new top hats.  Car ride height was the same as it was before ….about 4-5/8" plus or minus on all 4 corners.  We had a  race scheduled for last Sunday so I got to try them out.  After the warm up session I came in and checked the O-rings that I had put on the shock rods to check how close I was getting to the bump stops.  RF, LR & RR O-rings were all up against the bump stops.  The RF was about 3/16" below the bump stop.  I did 3 full rounds up and then went out for the first qual session.  Came in and the O-rings were the same except the RF was close to 1/2' below bump stop.  Did one more full round up on the rings and went out for 2nd qual and checked again.  Same for the 3 corners but RF was a touch more than 1/2" down from bump stop.  By this time the ride height on the car was up at about 5-1/2" at the pinch weld.  I thought; "Screw it, race what you got".  Car didn't seem to handle any different than before.  I did notice in the warm up that the car seemed to show 'bump steer' with minor bumps and was getting steering wheel deflection on minor bumps on track.  Didn't seem to notice that in the race but may have been a little too amp'd up to notice.  I have since gone back and taken 2 full rounds out (lower) on the rings.  My intend was to check to see if I stayed off the bump stops if I took T11 wide and slow.  T11 at AMP has huge compression and I think there is basically no way to stay off the bump stops on that corner.  Didn't get to check because someone had rented the track that day so I'll try again this Sunday or next weekend at the latest." What's going to be said about this Spec Miata racer telling a true story, At least I have no reason to doubt his story. He obviously was crashing the ORANGE shock protectors.


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#89
Steve Scheifler

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I think there were several comments at the time, appreciative for the info but recognizing the limited value given the relative lack of careful controls and the fact that a single bump can move the orings much more than normal cornering loads. If you took more from it, by all means enlighten us.
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#90
Bench Racer

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I don't recall anyone commenting about 3 out of 4 of this drivers O-rings continuously moving up to the orange stops as he increased the clearance.

 

My point being, this drivers data showed he continued smacking the orange stops as he raised his car. Is anyone reading, is anyone listening? The test team didn't say squat of what went on during there test that was not positive other than DON'T HIT THE ORANGE STOPS. 


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#91
Steve Scheifler

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Ugh! Just because we aren’t running around screaming and pulling our hair out based on the first bit of information, which BTW lacks useful details about the track in question, bumps, curbs, or for that matter the possibly bumpy route from paddock to pit lane, and that we aren’t over-interpreting the warning to stay off the stops, doesn’t mean we haven’t taken note for future reference as more information is gathered. Chill out.
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#92
Martinracing98

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Chill out.

Ditto.

 

Beta test is

 

"a trial of machinery, software, or other products, in the final stages of its development, carried out by a party unconnected with its development."

 

People (myself included) who bought the first batch have agreed to Beta test, whether they realized it or not. That is just the way it is with small market products like these. After multiple race weekends I am sure Penske and SMAC will look at the total experience and make changes if needed. Any adjustment or response now would just be a knee jerk reaction.



#93
RWP80000

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I don't recall anyone commenting about 3 out of 4 of this drivers O-rings continuously moving up to the orange stops as he increased the clearance.

 

My point being, this drivers data showed he continued smacking the orange stops as he raised his car. Is anyone reading, is anyone listening? The test team didn't say squat of what went on during there test that was not positive other than DON'T HIT THE ORANGE STOPS. 

 

As a member on the SMAC, I can assure you this forum is being monitored and even in some ways providing feedback ( thanks Ralph) to the Race community while protecting confidentiality when appropriate.  One of the reasons I provided the cloud link to our Sonoma Majors data was to provide documented data that not only detailed our setup info but also our actions through the event.  I don't know how many people bothered to use the cloud drive link but if they did they would have found our AIM logger files for all sessions, which anyone who wants to download the Race Studio Analysis program, would be able to load the files and review every channel of data that we recorded. Also included were PDF files from screen shots of data as I format it in the Race Studio software (knowing it is not easy if you are not familiar with this program to work with the data files).  I also exported my AIM "user profiles" giving those familiar with the program easy access to the program settings I use to analyze data.

 

As for the use of O-'rings, I found long ago with the Fat Cat and Bilstein's, that they often ended up shoved up inside the lower cushion and as a result, like you, developed a "dip-stick" method to determine how deep into the jounce bumper we were going. Hence, the impetus to implement a dynamic travel measurement system into our AIM system as described in an earlier post in this thread.

 

In our case, our first time on the Penske shocks was on a smooth track and we did not experience observable handling concerns.  I am trying to objectively absorb the feed back and event results from all of these early races.  I also would like to comment that while there has been very clear cautioning against setting the car so low as to "over use" the orange bump stops, it was not intended to imply that the car needs to be set to not ever hit the bump stops.  Given that, I share the wide interest within the SM community to learn the appropriate way to make use of the Orange bump stops.  Let's not forget that the Fat Cat kit was also a fix for the overly soft Bilstein compression dampening that resulted in the often discussed jacking down effect of the shock into the jounce bumper.  With the Penske's this should be a thing of the past and I can say our initial data shows, where we did get into the orange bumper enough to initiate washer deformation, the shocks very quickly recovered from the contact so as to not even have been a noticeable suspension control situation but observable in the shock travel data. Again, this is on what is considered a smooth track and as such the need to reconcile/learn with tracks of the other extreme.  We are all in this together and I do not think you will find we have our head in the sand.


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#94
Ron Alan

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Just sent back the original shocks that were tested by Mazda/Penske that were sent to me to run at the 25HR. I peaked at the washer on the rears and did not see any any obvious "bottle top" bending against the nut...though I wasn't sure if the washer was the same thickness as the ones we are receiving in the kits(very thin). We ran at a pinch weld height around 4.5"...I'm sure we were finding the orange bumpstop...but only on those big curb hits and off track excursions! Zero complaints about the car...all 4 drivers liked how it drove and felt.

 

Dont go black helicopter on us Bench! My gut tells me we are not finding the limits of suspension travel under normal ON track cornering. Certainly...as we always have...we are finding the travel limits on curb hits...big track imperfections and off track rides.

 

Rich Powers analysis above(very thorough) seems to match my drivers seat of the pants analysis(very unthorough)! 

Interesting part about Rich's data is at the point he saw the shock come into contact with the orange bumper was exactly were I would have expected! At the end of Sonoma turn 1 just before you go under the bridge to turn 2, there is a big swale in the track. Anyone who has driven this course knows what I'm talking about...it sends the car on a momentary roller coaster ride...very brief but enough to make a driver take notice and at 90mph under a decent G-load the car compresses dramatically!


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#95
38bfast

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Bench it sure must be loud at you house all the time with all those black helicopters flying around.
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#96
Bench Racer

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Rich, information appreciated.

 

When we talk about the Fat Cat which if I remember correctly it was the third iteration of the shock rod top mounting/bump stop and we all need to remember the lower washer was being forced/blown through the top hat previous to the Fat Cat, causing accidents. 

 

With the high compression rate of the orange piece, is there a known use for the orange piece other than as a shock protector?

 

Compression rate of orange piece is 600 pounds at approx. .079 inch compression.

 

Compression rate of Fat Cat bump stop less than 50 pounds at approx. .079 inch compression, 100 pounds compression at approx. .394 inch, 200 pounds compression at approx. .591, 300 pounds compression at approx. .689 inch. Our rear spring rate is 325 pounds.

 

The Fat Cat is an added progressive spring, along with clearly being a progressive rate shock protector. 

 

My concern is by time this Penske package is finished/complete/final there very well could be another iteration. Doing work twice is not my favorite past time.

 

I for one am not about to procure the Penske shock package until my view is it's a final shock package. If my car is a random tech check and the shocks are not to current rule spec, such is life. 

 

Ralph, wearing a tin hat wards off stuff.


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#97
Ron Alan

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Maybe instead of Bench Racer we go with Chuck McGill? :)


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#98
Bench Racer

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Ron, do you not have high expectations from Mazda/Long Racing/Penske, as in get it right the first time. How many times has it been written, you've read, Penske is a world class leader in shock manufacture.


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#99
Martinracing98

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  • My concern is by time this Penske package is finished/complete/final there very well could be another iteration. Doing work twice is not my favorite past time.

 

  • I for one am not about to procure the Penske shock package until my view is it's a final shock package.

I agree it is very possible that there will be changes. Hopefully they will be small. If so then they have done a great job.

 

Waiting until things shake out is a option I am sure will be chosen by many. The rules help with that by giving until the Runoffs before they are require in Majors, and I think through 2021 for regionals. Others are excited to try the new shocks now. If they (myself included) chose to switch now they should be realistic that they may have to deal with a little teething pains. So far I think everything is going smoothly. 



#100
FTodaro

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I agree it is very possible that there will be changes. Hopefully they will be small. If so then they have done a great job.

 

Waiting until things shake out is a option I am sure will be chosen by many. The rules help with that by giving until the Runoffs before they are require in Majors, and I think through 2021 for regionals. Others are excited to try the new shocks now. If they (myself included) chose to switch now they should be realistic that they may have to deal with a little teething pains. So far I think everything is going smoothly. 

I am just wondering if the change may be just a bit softer of a stop in the rear and eliminate the front black hard spacer. What is the purpose of that anyway other than to suck up shock travel?


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