Jump to content

Photo

SM Car Cost

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#21
Justin Casey

Justin Casey

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 45 posts
  • Location:San Jose, CA
  • Region:Northern California
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:85

In regard to NA6, the NB's have improved suspension geometry, larger/more stout motor, stronger differential, larger brakes, better aero, etc. etc. 

 

The above improvements, along with it being at a minimum 6-7 years newer than the NA6 chassis will influence the overall price. (It's newer, it has to be better/faster right?)

And of course, as others have said, if it has a good racing pedigree then you can typically ask for more since the chassis/motor is proven. 

 

In addition, even a perfect street car with low mileage can go for under $10K (at least in CA) and many other clean examples in the 3-7k range. 

That is still a reasonable price which appeals to a lot of people, so the demand for these cars has and will continue to rise. 

 

Do I agree with the inflation of NB prices? If I'm selling/plan to sell then absolutely. Complete opposite if you're planning to buy one that's already built. 

However, racing has and always will be an expensive sport/hobby. As they say, "you gotta pay to play" .


2018 NASA NorCal Regional Champion

2018 SCCA Runoffs - 4th Place

2018 NASA Championships - 5th Place

2017 NASA Western States Championships - 4th place
2017 NASA Northern California Region - 2nd place
2016 NASA Western States Championships - 2nd place
2016 NASA NorCal Regiaon Champion

Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#22
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
I don’t recall anyone trying to retire NA entirely, just not include them in Majors & HST where they account for under 10% anyway. If they had their own official championship of sorts ending at the AARC and maybe a west coast equivalent, you may actually see a big uptick in regional participation and prices. Without some kind of official championship (beyond the divisions or whatever) I’d expect regional participation to suffer even more in some areas because it will be difficult or impossible to have dual purpose NBs. Either way, our car counts would probably drop from 4 to 2.
  • dstevens and Jim Drago like this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#23
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

In regard to NA6, the NB's have improved suspension geometry, larger/more stout motor, stronger differential, larger brakes, better aero, etc. etc. 

 

The above improvements, along with it being at a minimum 6-7 years newer than the NA6 chassis will influence the overall price. (It's newer, it has to be better/faster right?)

And of course, as others have said, if it has a good racing pedigree then you can typically ask for more since the chassis/motor is proven. 

 

In addition, even a perfect street car with low mileage can go for under $10K (at least in CA) and many other clean examples in the 3-7k range. 

That is still a reasonable price which appeals to a lot of people, so the demand for these cars has and will continue to rise. 

 

Do I agree with the inflation of NB prices? If I'm selling/plan to sell then absolutely. Complete opposite if you're planning to buy one that's already built. 

However, racing has and always will be an expensive sport/hobby. As they say, "you gotta pay to play" .

 

From the sentiments on here, anyone owning a NA should be looking to sell it sooner than later. Just the fact that there is a post about removing NA from Super Tour and Majors is making NA cars cheaper... One look at Racing Junk confirms this (almost entirely NA cars for sale) lol.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#24
Martinracing98

Martinracing98

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts

If the rules changed and you needed an NA to win, do you really think the price for an NA would double?

Yes!!



#25
KAGEY

KAGEY

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Location:Des Moines
  • Region:DMVR
  • Car Year:1995
  • Car Number:43

Don’t think of it as NBs being overpriced, think of it as NAs being a bargain.

Steve you are correct sir  I paid $7500 for a 1995 this spring  with a great cage, solid pro motor heck even a transponder and cool suit.  My son finished his drivers school and 7 races with this car and it is plenty competitive. Next year its on to Majors so we will be going the NB route but an NA is a cost effective way to get through the missteps of a first season or for a veteran driver to piss off slower drivers with high priced cars


  • CDM likes this

#26
Pat Mcg

Pat Mcg

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Location:Richmond Kentucky
  • Region:Central Kentucky
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:8

I have seen NB's on the market go for as low as 12K..   But... you get what you pay for.

 

You can buy a well sorted NA for 15K-20K. with a little bit of work be very competitive... even win some regional but the fact of the matter is you will not beat the top 20 percent of the field at any majors or above event... not at 15K..  I guess there is always a chance Drago gets T-boned and half the top 10 go off the track and you fall into a win...  that could always happen..  but...  to actually compete at the top... You are looking at the same 30K dollar car to do that regardless....  And that's on the cheap side...

 

Don't look at it as the price of the car...  that is misleading...  its the cost to get on the podium..   

 

NA car.  10K.  Spend another 10K to get a 1.6/ 1.8 NA to beat a used 20K competitive NB car.   That still may beat you.    

 

Or, Spend 25K to buy a really well sorted and well built NB... and just go win.  Well... you still have to drive it.. 

 

There are plenty of 30K car owners that still can't win.. 


  • Ernie Cole likes this

#27
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

I have seen NB's on the market go for as low as 12K.. But... you get what you pay for.

You can buy a well sorted NA for 15K-20K. with a little bit of work be very competitive... even win some regional but the fact of the matter is you will not beat the top 20 percent of the field at any majors or above event... not at 15K.. I guess there is always a chance Drago gets T-boned and half the top 10 go off the track and you fall into a win... that could always happen.. but... to actually compete at the top... You are looking at the same 30K dollar car to do that regardless.... And that's on the cheap side...

Don't look at it as the price of the car... that is misleading... its the cost to get on the podium..

NA car. 10K. Spend another 10K to get a 1.6/ 1.8 NA to beat a used 20K competitive NB car. That still may beat you.

Or, Spend 25K to buy a really well sorted and well built NB... and just go win. Well... you still have to drive it..

There are plenty of 30K car owners that still can't win..


You make a lot of claims there, and most of them would be pretty darn disheartening to someone with talent but a tight budget. So I’m calling you out. Please tell us what the differences are between a $15k NA or $20k NB that cannot win at the Majors or HST level, and a $30k car that can.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#28
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

You make a lot of claims there, and most of them would be pretty darn disheartening to someone with talent but a tight budget. So I’m calling you out. Please tell us what the differences are between a $15k NA or $20k NB that cannot win at the Majors or HST level, and a $30k car that can.


CV shafts and special grease. 


  • Steve Scheifler likes this

-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#29
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I have seen NB's on the market go for as low as 12K..   But... you get what you pay for.

 

You can buy a well sorted NA for 15K-20K. with a little bit of work be very competitive... even win some regional but the fact of the matter is you will not beat the top 20 percent of the field at any majors or above event... not at 15K..  I guess there is always a chance Drago gets T-boned and half the top 10 go off the track and you fall into a win...  that could always happen..  but...  to actually compete at the top... You are looking at the same 30K dollar car to do that regardless....  And that's on the cheap side...

 

Don't look at it as the price of the car...  that is misleading...  its the cost to get on the podium..   

 

NA car.  10K.  Spend another 10K to get a 1.6/ 1.8 NA to beat a used 20K competitive NB car.   That still may beat you.    

 

Or, Spend 25K to buy a really well sorted and well built NB... and just go win.  Well... you still have to drive it.. 

 

There are plenty of 30K car owners that still can't win.. 

 

If the SM ruleset is doing it's job, the last thing any driver should need is a pro anything.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#30
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

This is the kind of thing that will turn away potential SM drivers. Gotta have a "pro" built SM to win.

...

If the SM ruleset is doing it's job, the last thing any driver should need is a pro anything.

The ship to utopia sailed 17 years ago without us on it, but the rest is valid enough.
  • dstevens likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#31
Pat Mcg

Pat Mcg

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Location:Richmond Kentucky
  • Region:Central Kentucky
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:8
 

Actually my point is irrelevant to the car.  You have to have talent to win.  the Talent comes first.  No reason to worry about all the car stuff until you master that.  You can learn just as much in a POS.... or go all in on a 30K new build.  You still have to drive.  And nothing substitutes talent.  The car will get you part of the way is all...   

 

Steve... If you don't know what it takes to prep a car to win a Hoosier Super tour event in SM.. I don't know what to tell you then.    Enter subject NA you purchased for 15K or less and give it a try..



#32
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,129 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

You make a lot of claims there, and most of them would be pretty darn disheartening to someone with talent but a tight budget. So I’m calling you out. Please tell us what the differences are between a $15k NA or $20k NB that cannot win at the Majors or HST level, and a $30k car that can.

Furthermore..   I have heard time and time again that you cant win in your car when most that race its say it is the fastest 1.6 out there? How do you stack up to Spencer driving the same car? Could it be its not just the car?

 

What kind of deal can we make to rent you my car next year? You podium in it at a super tour, you owe me nothing...  whats fair for the weekends you don't? Same deal for you crush..    Its the same thing from you two..   

 

No one seems to think maybe its just a little more than that?  If you feel it is the car holding you back, get in touch with me. I will put you in a winning car and we can settle it once and for all. 


  • Erik Hardy likes this

East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#33
Pat Mcg

Pat Mcg

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Location:Richmond Kentucky
  • Region:Central Kentucky
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:8

JIm..  I just said its about talent.  What are you talking about.  You can loose in a 30K dollar car just as easily as a 10K car... or vice versa.  I STILL have a lot to learn.  And.  I will take you up on the offer.  Absolutely.   However.  That does not change my opinion on the evidence I have seen that a 1.6 can not get it done at VIR regardless of the driver.  Just going with the data. 



#34
gerglmuff2

gerglmuff2

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 161 posts
  • Location:St Paul MN
  • Region:LOL
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:81

i mean lets talk about actual car costs. 

what does it take to win?

talent: obviously. this is expensive too, it means track time, instruction, experience etc etc. but its not a car cost. 

setup: the car needs to be setup for the event near ideally. this is something a regional racer probably isnt changing per event or per track. but likly needs to be. the changes are relatively cheap/minor, the real wealth here you buy with a prep shopped car, is the experience and testing that found the settings in the first place. i put setup knowledge and costs in another column to the car itselfs car cost.

labor: this is not a "cost" to the guy doing it in his garage for himself, but is a large percent of the cost the prep shop is doing to build/rebuild/maintain the car. 

 

compared to the parts on the car itself .... car obviously needs to run cool, have a powerful engine, good diff, good shocks, good tires, brakes etc etc .... but most of these parts are pretty standard. unless someone is cheating, the set of penskes i buy and run, are within the noise as the ones ESR bolts to there cars, right? 

i would personally like to hear the breakdown between labor, and parts THAT ACTUALLY MAKE A SIGNIFICANT AUTOMOTIVE ADVANTAGE, costs in a 35k prep shop build, and your joe-shmo, i put in a pro motor myself, dyno it from time to time, and do most of my own work in my garage. joe shmo has the same shocks, diff, brakes, and a pro motor, and the car makes weight, is corner balanced once a season, alignment played with from time to time etc

id be curious what the breakdown is in that cost. and what the difference in speed is. basically: what does blueprinting the trans, diff, etc and dyno tuning the shit out of the car really get you? im sure some of the shops can answer this but likely dont want to.


 


Gordon Kuhnley: Rookie


#35
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

...

Steve... If you don't know what it takes to prep a car to win a Hoosier Super tour event in SM.. I don't know what to tell you then. Enter subject NA you purchased for 15K or less and give it a try..


Seriously??? Talking to the wrong guy bud. I’ve built top flight NAs and NBs that could absolutely run at the front of any SM field, built (assembled, I don’t have an engine machine shop) numerous top prep engines, worked on and set up lots of cars for other people including those running at the front. Oh, and I own a dyno. I’ve even had some success behind the wheel, held multiple track records and qualified a close second only to Mr Drago more than once including (Q1) at the June Sprints. Been on the pole and won during the old “nationals” days (prior to “majors”) All the driving in a 1.6 back before they were given any of the help they received in recent years, and in a totally by the rulebook compliant one at that. I’ve been doing this since SM was a regional-only class and my cars have always been as fast as any legal car can be. All of that is not to boast on myself, but to make the point that I have a pretty good idea of what it takes.

What are your credentials?
  • Tom Hampton likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#36
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,129 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

JIm..  I just said its about talent.  What are you talking about.  You can loose in a 30K dollar car just as easily as a 10K car... or vice versa.  I STILL have a lot to learn.  And.  I will take you up on the offer.  Absolutely.   However.  That does not change my opinion on the evidence I have seen that a 1.6 can not get it done at VIR regardless of the driver.  Just going with the data. 

 that is NOT what I have been reading..

And your data is you comparing straights.. Are you CRUSHING the NB in corners, you should be?  Or are you cherry picking? It seems like the age old deal.. You want the lightest and fastest car.. that cant be the way this works or the other car has no chance anywhere.  Send me the data comparison files.. Love to see them. Just you saying its what did you say 1 or 1.5 second off? (i really don't remember but think that was your claim) If that's the case, i know you are cherry picking, that's not possible in your car


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#37
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
gerglmuff2, you have done a nice job of expanding on my question to Pat, but unfortunately he quickly shifted his focus to the driver and answered my question only with an uninformed insult. So don’t expect anything useful from him. What you left out of your equation is the tire budget, second only to talent in separating the front from many in that second tier.
  • Jim Drago likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#38
gerglmuff2

gerglmuff2

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 161 posts
  • Location:St Paul MN
  • Region:LOL
  • Car Year:1993
  • Car Number:81

gerglmuff2, you have done a nice job of expanding on my question to Pat, but unfortunately he quickly shifted his focus to the driver and answered my question only with an uninformed insult. So don’t expect anything useful from him. What you left out of your equation is the tire budget, second only to talent in separating the front from many in that second tier.

 

very important, yes, good point. i tried to be as comprehensive as i could be, and i did state that good tires need to be on both cars, but yes, to make it more explicit what you are saying here is that the difference in these cars is already smaller than difference between new and used tires?

cause i agree. 


Gordon Kuhnley: Rookie


#39
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

very important, yes, good point. i tried to be as comprehensive as i could be, and i did state that good tires need to be on both cars, but yes, to make it more explicit what you are saying here is that the difference in these cars is already smaller than difference between new and used tires?

cause i agree.

Well put, yes, though not always new vs used but the right tire and of course pressures.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#40
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,920 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Admin lock this thread.


Err....why?

 

This is downright civil.  Read back into the archives 10 years, or search the word parity...if you wanna see some real bickering. 


  • dstevens, Bench Racer and Andy Mitchell like this

-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users