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High Flow Catalytic Converter - TESTED

- - - - - catalytic converter smog emissions

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#1
ECOBRAP

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Sorry this took so long to get out, but glad we did some data gathering, and learned some things in the process! Good news and bad news on this one, but we have a game plan for what to do next.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=KIb_56kNhvg


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#2
Steve Scheifler

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So, not only predictable but, as I recall, predicted. And the whole thing is pretty much apples & oranges. Moving it up to where it belongs changes everything, but if conditions and testing are properly controlled you don’t need back-to-back dyno runs just minutes apart to see the impact on power, you just need a good dyno and good operator. On the other hand, testing emissions in closed loop seems pretty much pointless. Yes, the heat goes up with it under race conditions, but so does the velocity of the gasses moving through it and the fuel content and the timing. Do a little math and see how long the exhaust actually spends in there compared to at cruise smog testing. So in the end you learn that loading/unloading and around the pits, at 14.7:1, your cat sorta works. Whoa, stop the presses, it’s just like a stock Miata! (but maybe not quite as good with that cat). And from there you are going to estimate/guess whether it might be doing something positive at a much richer mixture, different timing and sustained max loads on the track, conditions that could hardly be more different. But don’t worry, you can always fix it with a Sharpie! Sorry, I’ve remained quiet for awhile but I’m back to scratching my head.
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#3
Ernie Cole

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You should test dBs/noise reduction as well if possible. So many tracks have sound limits now, you could use a cat in addition to/in place of the muffler.

 

Maybe it could solve noise pollution too haha


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#4
ECOBRAP

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So, not only predictable but, as I recall, predicted.

 

Congratulations! Do you want a cookie? How about a snickers?

 

We are testing the simple stuff to see if something interesting pops up, theoretical versus real world is not always as simple as it seems, and unlike you, we figure it is worth a shot.

 

We also don't mind admitting when it doesn't work out, hence the transparent video.

 

 

Yes, the heat goes up with it under race conditions, but so does the velocity of the gasses moving through it and the fuel content and the timing. Do a little math and see how long the exhaust actually spends in there compared to at cruise smog testing. 

 

We agree, but are open to experimenting and finding out real world data. If we move the cat to get it to the optimal temperature range under race conditions, will it do anything? Or are the gases moving too fast for the reaction to take place? There is no data on catalytic converter efficiency at 6000RPM 100% throttle, so please send us a link if you find one, otherwise we are going to keep experimenting.

 

 

But don’t worry, you can always fix it with a Sharpie!

 

Did it look like we covered up or adjusted any of the information in the video? Nope, wasn't good news for us, but we gave full transparency anyways. Yet we are still met with attitudes like yours. No big deal, we are used to it. At least some people get the big picture.

 

 

Sorry, I’ve remained quiet for awhile but I’m back to scratching my head.

 

I'm sure you scratch your head quite a bit, must be a lot of sand up there?

 

We have mentioned 10x before, the majority of emissions reduction we focus on is OFF the track, i.e. towing the car to and from the track. The best thing we do at the track is reduce our tire consumption, 2 sets per year and remaining competitive.

 

We are pushing our tow testing far more than our race testing, because fuel usage simply isn't that much at the track, but we figure emissions control is worth a few experiments here and there considering the disproportionate amounts of CO, NOx, and PPM that we push out.

 

Getting effective 50+MPG while towing 3,000lbs (happening next month) will do more than anything we can do at the track.

 

That is until we go electric on our race car, which people like yourself are motivating to happen sooner rather than later.


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#5
ECOBRAP

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You should test dBs/noise reduction as well if possible. So many tracks have sound limits now, you could use a cat in addition to/in place of the muffler.

 

Maybe it could solve noise pollution too haha

 

You bet, Laguna Seca is leading the charge on that, 90DB! Welcome to California...

 

But if our testing over the next year doesn't show any difference even after we try to achieve optimal temperature/conditions, there really isn't a point. Muffler will be cheaper! :)

 

We are looking into EV options as well. Not as fun as banging gears but... night races here we come???  :thumbsup:


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#6
Steve Scheifler

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I won’t waste time quoting each line, but...

Go back and read my prior posts. Although highly critical of most of your statistics and claims I was supportive of the emissions testing idea, critical only of your intent to start with it at the rear for obvious reasons. Other than that I too am curious to see REAL data. But testing emissions at a cruise speed of 15 & 25 mph just to prove cats work in the conditions they were designed for is hardly news worthy, and trying to extrapolate from that what they might do on track is just ridiculous. So if you don’t have plans to run a sniffer under proper loads then I see zero, possibly negative, value in your tests. Certainly not the “real world data” you mentioned. For all you know an overheating “street” cat will puke out all kinds of crap just before it melts through the floor. This isn’t a 3rd grade “science project” but if it were I’d hope that the student would be instructed on scientific method.
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#7
ECOBRAP

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Did you not watch the video? Or did you just subconsciously interpret everything into what you saw fit?

 

Specifically stated the cat was metallic core, not ceramic core like a street cat. I admittedly did forget to explain why (higher temperature resistance, and better emissions conversion at high flow/load).

 

Specifically stated that the emissions testing was done in a low load condition and not ideal.

 

Specifically stated that a sniffer WAS inserted on the DYNO, at FULL LOAD, and the AFR showed a visible difference of 1-2 points (12.7 AFR to 14.0 AFR) pre and post catalytic converter.

 

What does that mean? I have no idea, less hydrocarbons? Hard to speculate, but understand that it is easier said than done trying to convince a smog technician to let me brake-boost at full load 6000RPM on his extremely expensive testing equipment. Working on it.


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#8
Steve Scheifler

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Yes, obviously I watched the video. Cat type aside (I concede that I did not appreciate the potential relevance though I’d wager it is still a “street” cat, just marketed as lower back pressure but still able to pass emissions), the rest stands. Sniffing AFR doesn’t count for anything and not knowing what that might mean just proves my point. If you’ve done much dyno testing then you know a small change in AFR is expected with the addition or removal of anything like a muffler or cat, hardly a revelation. A big change like you showed, and no power change, probably an error in testing. Also there tends to be a bit of a plateau either side of the sweet spot which has little or no discernible impact on power. Someone inexperienced in such testing can make all kinds of false assumptions from what amount to isolated snippets of information. But really the only point I want to emphasize is that without EMISSIONS sniffing under full operating loads and temps, I don’t see how you can possibly learn anything useful or extrapolate the kinds of conclusions you promote.
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#9
Michael Novak

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Why the change to a EV?  How far are you planning on towing? Without properly sized batteries for towing you had better be within 50 miles of the race tracks you plan to run and have a charging source once you get there.


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#10
Alberto

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Enjoyed seeing the results and looking forward to the next test


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#11
ECOBRAP

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Why the change to a EV?  How far are you planning on towing? Without properly sized batteries for towing you had better be within 50 miles of the race tracks you plan to run and have a charging source once you get there.

 

Reasoning:

 

We actually wanted to start off with an EV tow vehicle, but we did the Diesel truck/trailer combo instead, to prove a realistic way to cut your emissions in half without breaking the bank (relative to average US vehicle cost).

 

Now that we have proven that concept (23.5 MPG hand calculated towing 4,000lbs with a stock truck, enclosed trailer, and carrying all tools/spares/tires we need to be competitive), it is time to go nuts and do our own thing. EV's are better for the environment in the long run.

 

Yes the battery production is terrible and generates a ton of CO2, but we calculated ALL factors (battery production emissions, emissions from generating electricity to run the vehicle which varies by state/county, emissions from burning gasoline, emissions from extracting/refining/transporting gasoline to stations, etc), and our vehicle will break even in just 1.6 years over our truck, as a mid-range estimate. Could be as low as 0.8 years and as high as 2.4 years depending on what data you use. Considering the powertrain warranty on the vehicle is 10 years 100k miles, we are indeed doing good for the environment in the long run. Unless we crash it into a ditch in the next 12 months... Lol.

 

Yes, we will be doing a video on these calculations because it is extremely interesting to find out the CO2 break-even point when factoring in the battery production.

 

It also makes me question if an EV race car is the cleanest option, because they simply don't cover that many miles to make up for the bad battery production. Also, race batteries don't tend to last as long as street batteries do (heat cycles, rapid charging/discharging, etc), so they might have to be replaced before they break-even...

 

That being said, we are setting out to prove 3 main points:

 

1. Prove that you don't need a pickup to tow. We will be using a mid size electric hatchback (LOL). Yes everything will be legal.

 

2. Prove that EV's can tow well under certain conditions: conservative speed, low/medium distance to your local tracks, 240V RV outlets at the track to charge with, etc

 

3. EV towing is fun: monster torque at your disposal 24/7, single gear reduction drivetrains (hopefully reliable?), and regenerative braking for efficiency

 

 

Estimates

 

Yes, the EV range will likely take a massive hit while towing, but we are hoping for no more than a 50% drop. With a 240-260 mile range on our EV hatchback, fingers crossed we can get 120 miles out of it while towing.

 

We are only 80-90 miles from Sonoma where we race a majority of the year.

 

Thunderhill is 180 miles each way, so we will likely have to stop and do a 45 minute DC fast charge each way.

 

We are super excited/anxious to see what our towing range will be like in the real world while towing 3,000lbs, stay tuned.


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#12
Michael Novak

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Reasoning:

 

We actually wanted to start off with an EV tow vehicle, but we did the Diesel truck/trailer combo instead, to prove a realistic way to cut your emissions in half without breaking the bank (relative to average US vehicle cost).

 

Now that we have proven that concept (23.5 MPG hand calculated towing 4,000lbs with a stock truck, enclosed trailer, and carrying all tools/spares/tires we need to be competitive), it is time to go nuts and do our own thing. EV's are better for the environment in the long run.

 

Yes the battery production is terrible and generates a ton of CO2, but we calculated ALL factors (battery production emissions, emissions from generating electricity to run the vehicle which varies by state/county, emissions from burning gasoline, emissions from extracting/refining/transporting gasoline to stations, etc), and our vehicle will break even in just 1.6 years over our truck, as a mid-range estimate. Could be as low as 0.8 years and as high as 2.4 years depending on what data you use. Considering the powertrain warranty on the vehicle is 10 years 100k miles, we are indeed doing good for the environment in the long run. Unless we crash it into a ditch in the next 12 months... Lol.

 

Yes, we will be doing a video on these calculations because it is extremely interesting to find out the CO2 break-even point when factoring in the battery production.

 

It also makes me question if an EV race car is the cleanest option, because they simply don't cover that many miles to make up for the bad battery production. Also, race batteries don't tend to last as long as street batteries do (heat cycles, rapid charging/discharging, etc), so they might have to be replaced before they break-even...

 

That being said, we are setting out to prove 3 main points:

 

1. Prove that you don't need a pickup to tow. We will be using a mid size electric hatchback (LOL). Yes everything will be legal.

 

2. Prove that EV's can tow well under certain conditions: conservative speed, low/medium distance to your local tracks, 240V RV outlets at the track to charge with, etc

 

3. EV towing is fun: monster torque at your disposal 24/7, single gear reduction drivetrains (hopefully reliable?), and regenerative braking for efficiency

 

 

Estimates

 

Yes, the EV range will likely take a massive hit while towing, but we are hoping for no more than a 50% drop. With a 240-260 mile range on our EV hatchback, fingers crossed we can get 120 miles out of it while towing.

 

We are only 80-90 miles from Sonoma where we race a majority of the year.

 

Thunderhill is 180 miles each way, so we will likely have to stop and do a 45 minute DC fast charge each way.

 

We are super excited/anxious to see what our towing range will be like in the real world while towing 3,000lbs, stay tuned.

VERY doubtful you will get to Sonoma. 


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#13
ECOBRAP

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One way to find out!


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#14
Steve Scheifler

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Does the EV have any tow rating? I ask because I can at least imagine that there might be built-in sustained amperage/torque limiters which may leave you stranded on a hill despite battery charge level.
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#15
Alberto

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I think you're nuts on the EV towing thing but carry on :)


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#16
Tom Hampton

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Might as well just get a team of horses, and a bale of hay.
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#17
Alberto

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Might as well just get a team of horses, and a bale of hay.

 

Too much methane in their "exhaust" :)


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#18
ECOBRAP

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Too much methane in their "exhaust" :)

 

Beat us to it lol


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#19
Michael Novak

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You do understand that if you have a significant accident while towing with your car the legal results could be very bad. The courts think poorly of vehicles that are over weight or have no tow rating like yours. I personally think it will be fine and safe, but the range will be VERY poor. Hopefully I am wrong and you get into the 100's. We will wait for results.

 

How do you like the car as a daily driver?


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#20
Martinracing98

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No reason to assume no tow rating.

 

Tesla Model X - rated at 4980

Tesla Model 3 - Tesla has a hitch for it. Tow rating unknown

 

I would be suprised if it will be able to tow the distance, but I am curious. I look forward to hearing






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