72 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

As well as that we cant get all the power initially as well because we have zero way to control our lash and maximize the total lift we are currently entitled to. It's not just about viscosity. No one can tell me what the effective lash of the hlas are and they cant tell me the factory tolerance for them. I seriously doubt the hlas provide fsm spec of x to y +/- .0012 or .0018 from x, whichever it is. Not looking at the fsm at the moment.

[infamousjim]

This thread is about a new 200tw offshoot class, right?

[Steve Scheifler]

This thread is about a new 200tw offshoot class, right?

It was, but every thread is subject to parity adjustments.

[Jim Drago]

As well as that we cant get all the power initially as well because we have zero way to control our lash and maximize the total lift we are currently entitled to. It's not just about viscosity. No one can tell me what the effective lash of the hlas are and they cant tell me the factory tolerance for them. I seriously doubt the hlas provide fsm spec of x to y +/- .0012 or .0018 from x, whichever it is. Not looking at the fsm at the moment.

 

death, taxes and James responses  

[Steve Scheifler]

As well as that we cant get all the power initially as well because we have zero way to control our lash and maximize the total lift we are currently entitled to. It's not just about viscosity. No one can tell me what the effective lash of the hlas are and they cant tell me the factory tolerance for them. I seriously doubt the hlas provide fsm spec of x to y +/- .0012 or .0018 from x, whichever it is. Not looking at the fsm at the moment.

Try to not get hung up on the lash. The HLAs work surprisingly well and eliminate an expensive PIA dealing with shims. I’ve built multiple “identical pairs” of 1.6 engines and have spent countless hours on a precision hub-type dyno which besides being highly repeatable in its own right allows rapid consecutive runs, stepped runs, static load-RPM measurements etc. I added additional sensors to monitor intake air temps along with water and oil temps so I could both control relevant variables and see their impact. At no point did I suspect the HLAs were responsible for reduced or inconsistent power unless I went too low in oil viscosity, base or due to temps, unless there was clear audible ticking/tapping from one or more of them. And even with one or two unusually noisy I didn’t necessarily see a significant loss of power.

Trust me, this isn’t a hill worth fighting for much less dying on.

[Jamz14]

Steve, on that dyno, did you build a 1.6 with hlas, then replace the hlas with solids and dyno again? If not, what your results are showing is that the hlas are providing consistent results, which is very good! But it isnt showing any difference between the two. Also, on the viscosity issue, unless the engine is running till completely heat soaked on the dyno, we are not seeing what happens over time.

No one is dying here. Jim is being tortured by having to read but that is about the extent of grief this discussion is causing anyone. Frankly the discussion is good for his site as I dont see anything this interesting being discussed since Benchs 1.6 crusade came to an end.

I also know that this conversation is going to go no place. Writing a letter will go no place. We know this because the conversation will go no place here.

Here is what you also wont see. You wont see anyone here asking to put cheaper, less PITAs hlas in their NB car. You wont see anyone do it just to know. Like how jim went through all of the trouble of putting adjustable cam gears on his vvt car just to know. Putting aside whether this is a valid point of enquiry or not, I am also bothered by the duplicity in thought and advice by some here. On the one hand they say the key to success is to kind every detail. They dyno all kinds of oil and at different weights to make the smallest of differences. Then on the other hand they say its 95% in your head and just change up to a thicker oil and dont sweat the small power loss of doing that. Engines by some builders are thought to be not good enough if they are down a couple of hp, but that same difference for me is no big deal and I should concentrate on me more.

These same people convinced me that to be the best I have to concentrate on everything. I do. Car, driver, program.

[Bench Racer]

If I remember correctly Steve and brother Tom after the air inlet and wrap turned laps as fast as the 99 plus cars at the Farm. Maybe not consistently, but they were there with their times. There was a victory in all the 1.6 bitching. Again, thank you SMAC from the little guys.

[Steve Scheifler]

James, I go back to the point Jim and I both made. Parity has been tweaked based on the cars built to the current rules, more or less “best case”. SO if you got more power from solid lifters (BIG if) then you should expect weight or plate to offset that. What matters is that you don’t get less than the design is capable of.

On my dyno, absolutely we run to heat soak. One of the great things about a hub dyno is that I can do five or six pulls in tge time you do one on a typical Dynojet. We warm the engine and drivetrain under low RPM load then do a minimum set of six consecutive pulls to get things at full operating temp. You can watch the power increase each pull until it plateaus and you get two effectively identical. Keep going without controlling intake temps and power drops. Coolant temp too high, power drops. Like I said above I added oil temp specifically to look for the contributors to 1.6 “heat soak” and to learn just how hot the oil really gets. And I was careful to control variables so the results were meaningful. I dare say that I probably had the only customized Dynapack in the world customized with temperature gauges on each pod to eliminate that potential small variable, and could even set those to open and close a valve from the cooling water feed.

That’s not to say under worst case scenarios there isn’t some chance that even with 20w50 you won’t lose some measurable power particularly if you happen to have one or more slightly soft HLAs. But I was at least as meticulous about every performance detail as you seem to be, heck I even bought a friggin dyno for personal use, but I still didn’t and wouldn’t put much effort into getting solid lifters.

[Jamz14]

Steve. Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments.

I understand what you are saying about gains being offset. Totally get it. Just anecdotally thinking about this and drifting from my points a bit: I have a head that doesnt make as much power, hlas that provide indeterminate lash, 9.0 pistons, cams that dont provide the same lift, intakes that are different. But I run at the same weight just no restrictor. Ok I guess. Here is what I do know. If this car was making good repeatable power, then more would run it.

In the end though i am really on a different crusade than trying to get more power. My current crusade is about weight and chassis response. I am hoping to prove out some things with running a topless car.

So again, thank you for all your thoughts. I love discussing with you.

Side note, I too am hoping to have an engine dyno setup in the near future. Personally I think most of the emphasis put in chassis dyno numbers is BS and irrelevant. I have built 5 engines this last year. Not one goes to the chassis dyno. It's useless and meaningless. Build a good engine with solid principles and you will have a strong enough engine is my belief.

But as always, I am crazy.

[Jim Drago]

Steve, on that dyno, did you build a 1.6 with hlas, then replace the hlas with solids and dyno again? If not, what your results are showing is that the hlas are providing consistent results, which is very good! But it isnt showing any difference between the two. Also, on the viscosity issue, unless the engine is running till completely heat soaked on the dyno, we are not seeing what happens over time.

No one is dying here. Jim is being tortured by having to read but that is about the extent of grief this discussion is causing anyone. Frankly the discussion is good for his site as I dont see anything this interesting being discussed since Benchs 1.6 crusade came to an end.

I also know that this conversation is going to go no place. Writing a letter will go no place. We know this because the conversation will go no place here.

Here is what you also wont see. You wont see anyone here asking to put cheaper, less PITAs hlas in their NB car. You wont see anyone do it just to know. Like how jim went through all of the trouble of putting adjustable cam gears on his vvt car just to know. Putting aside whether this is a valid point of enquiry or not, I am also bothered by the duplicity in thought and advice by some here. On the one hand they say the key to success is to kind every detail. They dyno all kinds of oil and at different weights to make the smallest of differences. Then on the other hand they say its 95% in your head and just change up to a thicker oil and dont sweat the small power loss of doing that. Engines by some builders are thought to be not good enough if they are down a couple of hp, but that same difference for me is no big deal and I should concentrate on me more.

These same people convinced me that to be the best I have to concentrate on everything. I do. Car, driver, program.

 

James

I think you are picking and choosing a bit..  To be clear, I have no complaint or grief whatsover about you doing all within your power to gain whatever you can within the rules. But when you suggest something outside the rules as a potential gain or avenue to go down ( that I am 100% certain will not be changed EVER) I have little patience discussing it and you tend to hold on to it and make a crusade out of it. Glad to see you realize that this is going nowhere.  I think if you put solids in your car versus good working HLA's, you will agree it is also a waste of time.   As far as testing with adjustable gears on VVT, that was to see why and how I was getting my ass kicked by another engine builder and wondering if that was something they were doing. Turns out it was plain old compression.   

 

As far as HLA's being a PITA? You can clean and rebuild them in an hour and you are done. Setting the lash on solid is way more time consuming and expensive, I contend you have the PITA reversed on lifters.  

 

 

On dynos.. we dont race engine dynos, hell we dont race chasis dynos either.  I like dynoing them in the car or our dyno mules.  You can definitely eliminate variables with engine dyno though. 

[Jim Drago]

James
I think you are picking and choosing a bit..  To be clear, I have no complaint or grief whatsover about you doing all within your power to gain whatever you can within the rules. Certainly not suggesting well I need to do this and you don't need to worry about it.  Truth is we have changed VERY little in last 6-7 years as we have been wining consistently and only so much you can do within the rules and the big gains have been gone for years. When you suggest something outside the rules as a potential gain or avenue to go down as yet another parity adjustment.( that I am 100% certain will not be changed EVER) I have little patience discussing it and you tend to hold on to it and make a crusade out of it. Glad to see you realize that this is going nowhere.  I think if you put solids in your car versus good working HLA's, you will agree it is also a waste of time.   As far as testing with adjustable gears on VVT, that was to see why and how I was getting my ass kicked by another engine builder and wondering if that was something they were doing. Turns out it was plain old compression.   
 
As far as HLA's being a PITA? You can clean and rebuild them in an hour and you are done. Setting the lash on solid is way more time consuming and expensive, I contend you have the PITA reversed on lifters.  
 
 
On dynos.. we dont race engine dynos, hell we dont race chasis dynos either.  I like dynoing them in the car or our dyno mules.  You can definitely eliminate variables with engine dyno though.

[Ron Alan]

 

 

As far as HLA's being a PITA? You can clean and rebuild them in an hour and you are done. Setting the lash on solid is way more time consuming and expensive, I contend you have the PITA reversed on lifters.  

 

 

Here here

[Steve Scheifler]

...
Side note, I too am hoping to have an engine dyno setup in the near future. Personally I think most of the emphasis put in chassis dyno numbers is BS and irrelevant. I have built 5 engines this last year. Not one goes to the chassis dyno. It's useless and meaningless. Build a good engine with solid principles and you will have a strong enough engine is my belief.

But as always, I am crazy.

To be clear, I use a chassis dyno, not an engine dyno, but it’s of the type which bolts to the hubs in place of the wheels and uses computer controlled hydraulics to generate the load so it can be operated in much the same way as an engine dyno. There are of course pros and cons to testing/tuning in the car. Ideally an engine would first be broken in and tested on an engine dyno with a control set of ECU, intake, injectors, exhaust etc., then again with the parts that will be installed with it in the car to confirm they perform well, and then again after install on a chassis dyno for comparison to a known benchmark for that to confirm drivetrain efficiency. But few people will want to pay an extra grand or two for that so it doesn’t happen much. A couple buddies are in the process of overhauling and updating an old engine dyno so who knows, maybe I’ll take the time this year to set up the wiring harnesses and plumbing necessary to test one or another Miata line, but it’s not high on my list. The next best thing is a test mule like Jim has so the mechanicals are known good, but even without that if an engine seems down a few HP it’s pretty easy to confirm or eliminate above average drivetrain mechanical loss with a IR temp gun.

I’m not a big fan of the “we don’t race dynos” mantra. It is of course technically accurate but it’s meant to denigrate the value of dyno time and tuning. I’ll spare you the lengthy version but will state emphatically that while there is much that can be accomplished without one given adequate time on track or street, some things can be done correctly only on a dyno. Fortunately for us SM is almost as simple as it gets so you can tune without a dyno and miss very little. Then again, “very little” is relative and SM is unlike most classes.