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Hiring A Driving Coach?

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#1
bmarshall1

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I am not really improving much and my consistency is poor, I need to learn 'how to learn'.  For reference my lap time average 2:45/2:46 and can vary by several seconds per lap depending upon how bad I blow a corner.

 

Lap record is 2:36 and I have seen where top drivers never vary by more than 10th's of a second per lap.

 

Has anyone had professional coaching that can comment to: What can I expect from a good coaching session/weekend, what should I 'bring to the table' both psychological and car related, and can anyone recommend a coach. I am in SW Florida but willing to travel within reason.

 

What about car prep?



#2
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Have a Pro set your car up for a given track you use.

 

Have said Pro test your car and tell you what your car needs. (Could be anything attached to car.)

 

Improve said needs.

 

Have Pro test car and document lap times.

 

You test car with Pro watching and document observations.


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#3
Steve Scheifler

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I’ll respectfully disagree with Bench’s first bullet point, get someone to give you a good generic setup if you have reason to suspect it’s significantly out of whack. When multiple seconds off the pace track-specific setup changes is not even on the radar of things to worry about, it just needs a solid predictable baseline.

Given the amount of lap time you are trying to find I would, if at all possible and even at significant effort, install a passenger seat and harness. The absolute best thing you can do is be the passenger while a very solid driver does some laps, if not in your car then something comparable. Off by ~4 seconds per minute of lap time you need to FEEL what the car is capable of and how it acts while someone explains it. The coach could do a few laps alone first to confirm the setup is adequate, but riding along you will learn more in ten minutes than an entire day of trying to absorb verbal instructions and translate them into changes in execution. Then switch places so the coach can help you reproduce what you just experienced.

If that just isn’t possible then hopefully you have onboard video at least. Data would be great but decent video will give a coach enough info to get you doing more things right more consistently, which if the first step in getting faster.
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#4
bmarshall1

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I’ll respectfully disagree with Bench’s first bullet point, get someone to give you a good generic setup if you have reason to suspect it’s significantly out of whack. When multiple seconds off the pace track-specific setup changes is not even on the radar of things to worry about, it just needs a solid predictable baseline.

Given the amount of lap time you are trying to find I would, if at all possible and even at significant effort, install a passenger seat and harness. The absolute best thing you can do is be the passenger while a very solid driver does some laps, if not in your car then something comparable. Off by ~4 seconds per minute of lap time you need to FEEL what the car is capable of and how it acts while someone explains it. The coach could do a few laps alone first to confirm the setup is adequate, but riding along you will learn more in ten minutes than an entire day of trying to absorb verbal instructions and translate them into changes in execution. Then switch places so the coach can help you reproduce what you just experienced.

If that just isn’t possible then hopefully you have onboard video at least. Data would be great but decent video will give a coach enough info to get you doing more things right more consistently, which if the first step in getting faster.

Thanks Steve and Bench,

 

I had to LOL at the comment about me going for the lap record, the lap record was more of a reference point that I am generally 10 seconds off pace, although one weekend I was turning 2:43 (new tires and brakes, maybe cooler?)  If I could consistently get into the low'ish 2:40's consistently I would be happier until I'm ready for the next step.

 

I have a pretty general and neutral set up and will run it by the coach when it is time - and adjust as needed.  I don't have data, but I do have a Garmin Catalyst (video). I have a buddy w/ a car set up like mine and he has data, but no sensor inputs.  I agree about the 2 seat car, I *could put a second seat in my car but now we're taking quite a bit more in expenses.  Maybe the coach would have a 2 seater?

 

I have seen many references to Todd Lamb and he is not too far away will be reaching out next week), are there any other coach recommendations?



#5
Danny Steyn

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Garmin Catalyst is not a data system

 

IMO, everything revolves around data. It is the lie detector. 

 

If Todd lays down a lap, and then you do a lap, you will instantly know where your gains are to be had, and you can start chiseling away incrementally.

 

Without data, you are guessing. Just my $0.02


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#6
Steve Scheifler

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Garmin Catalyst is not a data system

IMO, everything revolves around data. It is the lie detector.

If Todd lays down a lap, and then you do a lap, you will instantly know where your gains are to be had, and you can start chiseling away incrementally.

Without data, you are guessing. Just my $0.02

With all due respect Danny, what do you know about the Catalyst? From here it appears nothing. It is, without question IMNSHO the single quickest, easiest AND cheapest way for someone like bmarshall to improve lap times and build consistency. It IS absolutely a data system, just not using and displaying it in the way you are locked into, and it does things that NO other data system can do and it requires only a tiny fraction of the time and training required to effectively utilize traditional systems. That’s not to say it will replace those, but it is absolutely ideal for someone like this and will make him better faster than he could install other systems let alone learn to interpret the data.
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#7
TylerQuance

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Generally data is not much good unless you have a faster teammate to compare to, which I think is Danny's point... use what your teammates use. For that reason I would find a coach who plans to race the same weekends as you, or who has access to front-runner data.

 

I agree video alone is great for getting 80% there though if you have the right person looking at it. Maybe the Garmin does more than that... don't know, don't care to.

When I was starting, I produced noticeable results faster with a trained eye of a front-running teammate watching my video and telling me how to suck less. A trained eye can also see from your video if your setup is awful.

 

My early days ultra-budget data analysis was like this:

Find a video of a front-runner at the track I was going to who has MPH overlayed.

Go to the fast lap in the video.

Watch every corner and pause video at the min speed and record. Good for gauging driver and setup.

Watch every straight with no draft and pause video at the max speed and record. Good for gauging car performance.

Take your scratch pad to the track and do the same with your own video.

This got me into the top 25% if I didn't make any colossal mistakes, which were often :pessimist:

 

Good luck.


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#8
Steve Scheifler

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“ Maybe the Garmin does more than that... don't know, don't care to.” Swell, revolutionary (for this market) technology that he already has and you brush it off to say watch video and take notes. That’s perfectly good advice, as ONE thing that helps fill in the blanks but hardly a plan for finding ten seconds.
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#9
TylerQuance

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I mostly said that to see if I could wad your panties. For fun.

Bruce, your Garmin I assume has GPS speed where you could use my method using what you already have.


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#10
Steve Scheifler

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I mostly said that to see if I could wad your panties. For fun.

Brandon, your Garmin I assume has GPS speed where you could use my method using what you already have.


What panties?


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#11
bmarshall1

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Hey Guys, thanks for the lively discussion, all points are welcome.

 

If anyone missed it, I am not looking for 10 seconds, give me 4 or 5 and consistency.  For those that are not familiar, the Garmin collects 'data' thru GPS and accel/decelerometers (and maybe more). It then analyzes your current lap section  against your fastest section and then coaches you what to do (Sebring has 12? sections), for example: brake sooner, apex later, or good job if you did it right.  It will also give a review showing your lines, accel and decel points on the track so one can compare and an average lap against the fastest lap.

 

It will also 'stich' together your fastest section to create your perfect lap and tell you what your time could be.  I could generally pick up a few seconds if I could run my perfect lap.  It does have speed displayed so I will take the tip and see if I can compare my lap to a video on YouTube or something to that effect.

 

I like the 'coaching' aspect of the Garmin but one area I would change is instead of coaching me to 'brake later' (where exactly is later), it would be better to give me a countdown "3, 2, 1, brake now". My brake points may vary so 'later' is relative.  My racing friend has one and we compare fast laps to see where one of us does better than the other and it is helpful.  A good situation would for me to put it in someone's car that runs a lap that is attainable to me (it would not do me any good to say... put it in Danny car b/c I can not drive on the edge of performance like he does.

 

Steve - feel free to correct any incorrect statement, or add additional capabilities, if I recall, you run the Catalyst and are quite familiar w/ them. - what are your best practices with the catalyst?

 

Danny - ultimately I agree that granular and specific data comparing laps would tell me a lot. I.E. that driver Johnny McGofast brakes later, lets off sooner, apexes later, carries 4 more mph through the corner and holds a tighter line.  This this may be a better solution and is literally telling me what to do, and one day that's what I will have, but for now I have to work with what I have. 

 

So - I although I have no idea how much a driving coach would be,  I will ask anyway - would money be better spent on a driving coach or full data acquisition?



#12
Steve Scheifler

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There’s a Catalyst FB group, go there and read some of the early posts where the functionality and technology were first discussed. What few fully grasp is that unlike EVERY other system the video is quite literally a DATA input, along with GPS and accelerometers. The term Artificial Intelligence is often stretched but in this case it is entirely appropriate. Similar to self-driving car technology the Catalyst “sees” the actual track surface, the curbs, the apex, etc. It learns the track as you drive (not just your car coordinates in space) and knows where you are in relation to it. That allows things no other system can touch including the real-time coaching.

The internal analysis and coaching is an incremental thing, paradoxically relying on your inconsistency to learn what works better (not necessarily best) so it can coach you to do more of that and get more consistent. But once you do that you really should experiment more (be strategically inconsistent) and let it sort out what's best then remind you to do that. They don’t recommend it for obvious liability reasons but letting someone do a few laps on your profile at an “attainable” pace could certainly accelerate the process, but if you don’t yet have the necessary skills you may regret it.

Even the Optimal Lap sets a new standard. The logic does not simply string together the quickest sectors, it combines only those that the AI deems achievable successively, because it actually knows where on the track you are. And it plays with some overlap in sectors to further refine those projections.

Those are highlights but there is much more. I like full data systems, indeed I purchased the first (G-Cube) and second (G-Analyst) consumer products ever offered and others since. But I know full well the commitment they require and that consequently the vast majority end up little more than glorified YouTube content generators. Ideally I would recommend that most racers not already at the very front have both because they truly compliment each other, but if someone outside the elite must choose one and can’t absolutely commit an enormous amount of time to messing with data, or wants very quick results, then a Catalyst is the place to start.
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#13
bmarshall1

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Steve - thanks for the additional info, I did not take into consideration the camera being part of the 'data' collection but it makes perfect sense.  I also do not know the other ways in which it takes my driving and gives me an attainable solution based upon my driving.  I will get on their Facebook page and see what else I can learn to better exploit it's capabilities.

 

My concern is it may be 'aware' enough to say "Bruce - give it up, you suck and you are a shitty driver" :weeping:



#14
TacPen

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In regards to using the Garmin Catalyst: Ross Bentley has some good advice on how to get the most out of it - https://speedsecrets...5-15-1-process/

 

It's absolutely a real data system, it just uses a different interface. If you dig into it, the data is pretty much the same as an AIM Solo, just presented differently.

 

I find that both work for different reasons and even with the Garmin, I still end up using the video method TylerQuance mentioned (I find it especially useful to compare a faster driver's video to my own with the AIM Solo in view) and take notes / make adjustments. That said, for between sessions using the Garmin same day to improve works very, well. 

 

Of course... I still suck, but it has helped me to improve then quantify the improvement.



#15
TylerQuance

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Steve - thanks for the additional info, I did not take into consideration the camera being part of the 'data' collection but it makes perfect sense.  I also do not know the other ways in which it takes my driving and gives me an attainable solution based upon my driving.  I will get on their Facebook page and see what else I can learn to better exploit it's capabilities.

 

My concern is it may be 'aware' enough to say "Bruce - give it up, you suck and you are a shitty driver" :weeping:

Edited my post to call you by your actual name... sorry Bruce.


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#16
bmarshall1

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Edited my post to call you by your actual name... sorry Bruce.

No worries, I figured you meant Bruce.



#17
Alberto

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I decided to get serious about improving my driving last year.  After 10 years of being licensed but missing multiple years during those 10 years due to life happening, my lap time were not improving with my own analysis skills and asking people at the track how they do things. I turned 50 and decided to step it up and get closer to my goals.  I had about 4 seconds to lose from lap times at Sonoma, Thunderhill and Laguna.

 

TC Design had recommended a few coaches and I luckily got hooked up with Matt Cresci (Ecobrap).  I also added a SmartyCam because GoPro are unreliable. I also upgraded from my AIM SOLO to a used AIM EVO and added Throttle Position Sensor, Brake PRessure Sensor and Steering Angle.  

 

The SOLO was a good start but having brake pressure and others have been enlightening as it more accurately shows what inputs I am giving the car and where I'm screwing up on those inputs.  Brake Pressure for example helped me fix my braking and entry into T10 at Thunderhill because apparently I was not maintaining consitent brake pressure on brake and downshift.  I was releasing pressure between the initial brake and the downshift, then adding additional brake pressure after the downshift just before turn-in - which would cause the rear to be light and the second brake pressure spike would cause the car to be loose at turn in.

 

Anyway, long story short, he fixed me.  Figured out where I was loosing time, improved technique and improved my line through a few troublesome corners.  Also addressed my mind set a little and racecraft a lot.  I feel much more confident and am a lot safer both in the lines that I take and with my fellow drivers than I was.

 

Right seat coaching is not needed IME.  especially if you have data since the data will tell you more w/o an extra 200lbs in the car and odd corner weights affecting how the car feels.  

 

One thing I wish I had learned sooner in racing is that asking people without data what they are doing in a corner is an exercise in futility most of the time.  Many people would say that they don't brake for T6 at Thunderhill.  This led me to attempt that corner w/o a dab of brake or slight lift to settle the nose.  That didn't work.  Same thing with people saying they were flat through  T3 at TH.  Nope.  Most are not.  Same thing with people saying 'you're coasting too much' or 'drive harder' or 'brake less' or 'get on throttle sooner/faster' - that kind of feedback is so ambiguous that it's useless.  People might think they have a clue when giving that sort of feedback but it's not actionable. 

 

Brake less where?  What is less?  

Get on throttle sooner?  Getting on throttle sooner can cause understeer.  You need to get back to throttle at the correct time in the corner.  Not sooner.  Sooner can result in over braking so you can get on throttle sooner.  That won't make you faster.

Coasting - there are some corners where neutral throttle is correct.

 

 

My suggestion - talk to a local pro shop about coaching recommendations for coaches at the tracks you visit.  Maybe OPM?  Find a used data system and install.  Learn and have fun.  I wish I had gotten a coach sooner.  Now I have to unwind 10 years of bad habits.  I kept thinking that I just needed more seat time - and I did - but a coach and data analysis would have helped even more.

 

hth...


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#18
Steve Scheifler

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Excellent post Alberto! And kudos to Matt for helping you sort it out. Traditional data is absolutely great with the right person analyzing it and then communicating those findings in actionable terms. It’s a significant investment of money to install and then either a lot of time or more money to use it effectively, but it can fix the “plateau” problem that many of us encounter so we can move up again.
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#19
bmarshall1

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I second the 'Great Post' comment,  I think I always knew the answer (coach and data) but didn't want to step up $$$.  Looks like I'll be saving up a buck or two.


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#20
Alberto

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Yeah, I also knew the answer was coaching and data but always thought that I needed to be further along in order to get the most out of a coach.  Turns out that was wrong. 

 

Regarding data, I personally don't know how to get the most out of the data I have.  I had tried a few times over the years to learn more about it so that I can analyze it myself but the learning curve is steep (for me) and the older I get the more I realize the importance of time.  I can't be an expert or advanced user of everything that I find interesting.  Thankfully Matt is very good at data analysis.  Coaching and analysis is his day job afterall :) Hopefully other coaches are as well.


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