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#1
Jim Drago

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So the rumor is that SMAC is putting 25 lbs on the VVt car.  I have copie and pasted my FB post here and added a little data chart

Jim

 

First off, this seems like a likely direction the SMAC is headed, but at this point it is just a rumor.. The problem with the system is by the time it is no longer a rumor, the damage is done and your opinion is moot. Most all of us, especially myself are very passionate about our racing. A bunch of A plus personalities all thrown together, no one wants any disadavantage, real or perceived. Many not winning now feel they are getting beat by either us cheating or the VVt cars being too dominant, often believing this and never looking within at their individual talent, strategy, dollars spent, quality of their cars etc, etc.. I will say with no doubt there are many drivers who would not win a well attended super tour event in the best car on the grid, but believe they can. That is a problem. Most all of us jump right to it must be the other guys, especially the front runners 1f642.pngThats rarely the case

 

After that, Rob Hines touched on it.. Stability Stability... and Stability!! Whats great about our class is you know you can build a car and if built and driven to its potential you can win. Its not T4, Bspec or ST classes where they hammer the winners and you have to build a new car. I dont believe anyone on the SMAC has any intentions of remotely changing that even if I disagree with this direction. If/when they make a change, IMO they need to leave the cars alone for the forseeable future after that or unless a serious outlier develops so no one is concerned they built/bought the wrong car.. Instability is bad for the class!

 

My opinions... SMAC/SCCA has been after the VVT and my cars in particular for 4 years plus and have found basically nothing, one cam reluctor out of spec, which made zero Hp and ironically the same car destroyed the field at the Runoffs and passed full tear down. So with that data, they had to assume the VVT cars, even ours when running are compliant. So they started looking at data and the whys. So the narrative( IMO inside and out the SMAC) has been "but the VVT wins too much' I have never understood that mentality. If the cars are classed correctly, I dont care who/what car wins. But no harm in them looking, but the impending hammer of the last three years IMO is also detrimental to the class. It keeps people on the sidelines afraid to make a decision and jump in. With that in mind I looked at the race wins of all HST races and the Runoffs from 2017 through COTA this year. The information is in next post.

 

From 17 forward I came up with 76 HST and Runoffs excluding the west coast events as there is little crossover... Here is what I came up with.. Of the 76 races Two drivers Jim Drago and Preston Pardus won 33 of them ( Jim 20 / Preston 13) The rest of entire class combined for 43.. The VVT cars won 50 races and the 99/00 car won 26 races.. If you pull Preston and I out of that data set .. The 99 wins far more. I feel fairly certain if Preston and I raced 99 cars from 2017 forward we would still win the same or similar amount of races. If we all agree there, I think it is fair to say... If that were the case, we would be talking about a smaller plate on the 99/00 and/or less weight on the VVT cars right now, not a weight penalty for the VVT. Should the effects of two drivers really skew the rules for the entire class? That is my honest opinion and main concern here. I think anyone looking at this with a common sense approach would have a hard time disputing that fact. The SMAC has literally hundred of hours looking at this, if they come up with definitive data to support such a change.. I am man enough to accept it, admit it and try it, but I would need to see something. This is so much like politics, all the people on the SMAC are good people and want the best for the class just as I do, even if we disagree in our opinions. In the big scheme of things.. I am not losing a race over 25 lbs regardless of what car I am in, It will be other factors that cause that. 25 lbs is within the noise.. But if not fully backed by definitive data, I dont want rewards weights either and nor do I think upsetting the current apple cart should be taken lightly.

 

Here is what I saw.. 

 

 

 

Total wins Jim Drago and Preston Pardus   33

Total wins everyone combined less Jim and Preston  43

Total ESR Wins  41 

The rest of the others combined 35

99 wins- 26

VVt wins  50

VVT wins if you pull out Jim and Preston 18

 

  Think about this, If Preston and I raced 99 cars from 2017-2022, we would be bringing the VVT weight back to 2400 or giving the 99 a smaller plate.  It's important to know, Preston never won a race in a VVT car until after his first win which was in my ESR 99 rental car at the 17 Indy Runoffs! Had he not started a new VVT build at that point and just bought my 99.. We would never be having this discussion either. 


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#2
Ron Alan

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Please never drive a NA1.8 car Jim...though we have gotten nothing in 7-8 years...you and Preston would screw that all up :)


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#3
Jim Drago

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Please never drive a NA1.8 car Jim...though we have gotten nothing in 7-8 years...you and Preston would screw that all up :)

I won my first race and championship in a NA 1.8 :) 


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#4
Ron Alan

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I won my first race and championship in a NA 1.8 :)

And that was the car to have back in the stone ages...then as we know from recent rants/raves the evil NB car was allowed into the class  :noidea:  :hugegrin:

 

25lbs is noise argument(the other way...so no SMAC member better say this!) didnt fly when a few of us did request thru the proper channels a closer look at the NA1.8...one data set from one car killed our whole mission. Like you say...if that exists for the VVT then it better come front and center for all to see! If its not there I'm with you on no change! 2450 min just seems like a lot. Didn't the vvt start with a smaller restrictor? 


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#5
Jim Drago

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And that was the car to have back in the stone ages...then as we know from recent rants/raves the evil NB car was allowed into the class  :noidea:  :hugegrin:
 
25lbs is noise argument(the other way...so no SMAC member better say this!) didnt fly when a few of us did request thru the proper channels a closer look at the NA1.8...one data set from one car killed our whole mission. Like you say...if that exists for the VVT then it better come front and center for all to see! If its not there I'm with you on no change! 2450 min just seems like a lot. Didn't the vvt start with a smaller restrictor?


You guys lost support when 75 lbs was asked for
If they go this way, I would sure like to see the 94/00 lose 25 lbs rather than add to the VVT and that hurts me personally compared to every VVT in the field, but that is the way it should go.


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#6
Ron Alan

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100% on reducing weight rather than adding! When 4 or 5 of us wrote letters asking for another look at the NA1.8 it was somewhat of an effort...but not 100% on the same page as it turns out. I for sure didn't ask for 75lbs...this was a stretch. I thought 50lbs was reasonable and figured 25lbs would be throwing us a bone and better than nothing! Well nothing was best apparently :( 


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#7
Brandon

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You guys lost support when 75 lbs was asked for
If they go this way, I would sure like to see the 94/00 lose 25 lbs rather than add to the VVT and that hurts me personally compared to every VVT in the field, but that is the way it should go.

 

What about 15# instead of 25#? Or does that fly in the face of the overbore penalty we've been working with all these years?


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#8
Jim Drago

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What about 15# instead of 25#? Or does that fly in the face of the overbore penalty we've been working with all these years?

Who knows.. 


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#9
Steve Scheifler

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What about 15# instead of 25#? Or does that fly in the face of the overbore penalty we've been working with all these years?



I fail to see any connection to fly in the face of. Hopefully whatever is done or not done is based on math and will be fully explained either way. Since “they” chose to suppress the relevant details of the Runoffs data, weak that it was, I find it impossible to form an educated opinion and question anyone who claims to unless they have data to back it up.
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#10
Brandon

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I fail to see any connection to fly in the face of. Hopefully whatever is done or not done is based on math and will be fully explained either way. Since “they” chose to suppress the relevant details of the Runoffs data, weak that it was, I find it impossible to form an educated opinion and question anyone who claims to unless they have data to back it up.

 

The SMAC has all sorts of competing constituencies to accommodate and one was the need of the CRB to maintain a "low cost of entry" and not favoring one platform over the others. The face flying would be their rationale for applying the 15# penalty on the overbore: they did not want to make it appear that this was a "must have" to be competitive and/or it being a giveaway for extra power. AKA - an expense in building a car.

 

Implementing a 15# reduction for 94-00 would make those two platforms the one to build new due to perceived "free power" from the overbore and no weight penalty.


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#11
Steve Scheifler

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The SMAC has all sorts of competing constituencies to accommodate and one was the need of the CRB to maintain a "low cost of entry" and not favoring one platform over the others. The face flying would be their rationale for applying the 15# penalty on the overbore: they did not want to make it appear that this was a "must have" to be competitive and/or it being a giveaway for extra power. AKA - an expense in building a car.

Implementing a 15# reduction for 94-00 would make those two platforms the one to build new due to perceived "free power" from the overbore and no weight penalty.


Still zero connection, no more than any other BOP adjustments over all these years. The overbore weight was, obviously, an attempt to directly offset a tiny theoretical increase in power, but as you said largely for perception. The rest of this is just plain BOP by model/spec line, or they all fly in the face of overbore weight (they don’t, obviously).
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#12
chris haldeman

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All I want to know is how many wins were mine!!!! 1999 live or die
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#13
chris haldeman

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#14
Dave D.

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Is it too much to ask, but has anyone on the CRB or SMAC ever compiled data on the results from the last 3 seasons from REGIONAL results? Has the VVT been dominant in the hands of the average schmo? Is it accurate to base changes on results of HST or Majors alone?  It also isn't very scientific to make changes to promote a "lower cost of entry" when you are dealing with ambiguous variables such as perception and feelings of fairness without analyzing data(maybe they did, but it's never been discussed what/how was done). Trying to entice new drivers to come to SM because the idea is anyone can grab a random Miata,build it for $10k and win the runoffs is a fantasy, and we may as well just hand out participation trophies so no one's feelings are hurt. Racing is,was and always will be expensive, whether you are involved with R/C cars,gokarts, or IMSA. We also have to accept the fact that these 30 year old cars are increasing in value to the point that building a new NA won't make sense as good clean donors will be too expensive to cut up. The NBs will get there too. In certain parts of the country, finding good NB1 donors and parts are beginning to become difficult. The days of easily finding sub 75k mile engines/transmissions are gone.There are just more NB2s out there due to more years produced.

     Enough rambling, like Steve, I want to see the scientific analysis report as to why changes are needed. If the majority doesn't want Preston to win anymore, start a fund so he can move up full time to race pro ant not bother us schmos! If you don't want Drago to win anymore, start a collection so he can get that bungalow in the Keys to go fishing and work on his tan!



#15
gerglmuff2

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i dont think any data analysis that says "if you remove all of these positive outcomes, the outcomes between these two things are equal" makes any sense. simply from a data analysis perspective. i know preston is good, but thats simply not sound data analysis. 



the relevant dyno data is likely not power and torque, but time from beginning of 4th, to end of 4th for all chassis/engine. there are some weird other cases, like the drag/power issue in 5th for the 1.6, but if you can get time through 4th gear to match for all chassis, thats 99% of the problem right? 


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#16
Brandon

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Still zero connection, 

 

If you say so, chief.

:dope:


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#17
Steve Scheifler

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If you say so, chief.
:dope:

You are pointlessly hung up on the fact that 15lbs happens to be the same number as the overbore offset for all engines despite being totally unrelated to ANY other BOP weights. So if we make it 14.5 or 15.5 then the perception of free power goes away? I’m confident that only you could confuse these issues, but then people on FB amaze me almost daily with their powers of reason.
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#18
RWP80000

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Please see the calculations below that support use of the 15 pound weight adjustment on all SM engines 1.6 thru 1.8L.  When you increase the size of the bore there is a net change in displaced volume.  The basic engine design has a characteristic horsepower output.  This would best be described as H.P. per cubic inch.  When over-boring an engine, especially in the small amounts of the first oversize, you will not be altering the basic HP/displacement volume characteristic of the engine.  As a result, you can reasonably predict the net increase in power as being directly proportional to the additional increases in displacement that results from the 0.25mm/0.010in overbore.  The calculations below is the mathematical proof in support for the use of the nominal 15 lb. overbore weight penalty being applied.

 

Calculations for Displacement and Weight changes to "adjust" for Overbore: 

1.6L 3.072 std.bore x 3.272 nominal stroke = 1589.7 cc's: 3.082 (+.25mm) bore x 3.272 stroke= 1600.0 cc: Displ Delta=10.3cc. 1.6L Std bore min wt.= 2275/1589.7cc= 1.4311 lb./cc; 10.3cc x 1.431 lb/cc= 14.74 #'s Weight penalty  

 

1.8L 3.267 std.bore x 3.346 nominal stroke = 1783.6 cc's: 3.277 (+.25mm) bore x 3.346 stroke= 1794.5 cc: Displ Delta=10.9cc. 1.8L Std NB1 min wt.= 2400/1783.6cc= 1.3456 lb./cc; 10.9cc x 1.3456 lb/cc= 14.67 #'s Weight Penalty  

 

1.8L 3.267 std.bore x 3.346 nominal stroke = 1783.6 cc's: 3.277 (+.25mm) bore x 3.346 stroke= 1794.5 cc: Displ Delta=10.9cc. 1.8L Std VVT min wt.= 2425/1783.6cc= 1.3596 lb./cc; 10.9cc x 1.3596 lb/cc= 14.82 #'s Weight Penalty


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#19
Brandon

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You are pointlessly hung up on the fact that 15lbs happens to be the same number as the overbore offset for all engines despite being totally unrelated to ANY other BOP weights. So if we make it 14.5 or 15.5 then the perception of free power goes away? I’m confident that only you could confuse these issues, but then people on FB amaze me almost daily with their powers of reason.

 

If you say so, chief.

:dope:


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#20
Steve Scheifler

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If you say so, chief.
:dope:

I can’t let this go because you are so dense sometimes. As I said above and as Rich just spelled out for the thick, the overbore is borderline noise-level minutiae but it is simple math and applies to ALL years/engines. So in your illogical scenario the 15lb BOP adjustment is applied to BOTH the standard bore AND the overbore so nobody is getting anything free or losing anything related to said overbore adjustment. Perhaps if you write this on your palm and smack your forehead a few hundred more times it will sink in, chief.

What really annoys me about you and repeatedly brings out the a-hole in me is that after saying stupid shit you double down and redouble rather than just say something like “ah, right, fair point”. But you “SOUND” rational and reasonable and probably sway people who don’t know any better, so I’ll just keep at it.

Now, if you’d like to delete all your posts I’ll gladly do the same because we both look pretty bad.
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