57 replies to this topic

[Bruce Wilson]

Thousands of people have said it before me - but if you're not scaring the crap out of yourself at least once per lap, every lap, then you're not going fast enough.

Once per lap.. Should be every corner every lap.

So true... That's the part they won't teach you in school

Case in Point -- Watch Mark Drennan through 10, 11, and 12 in the 2008 Rose Cup.

Most people would have given up, spun and hit the wall. This is where seat time and talent comes into play Mark just drives through it. Yes, that is old #68 Tigger taking advantage of Mark's bobble

-bw

[William Bonsell]

Great save to be sure...but quite honestly I would prefer, for me personally, to try and avoid those situations. I think I can handle a little wiggle from time to time, but that really did not
look like much fun! You must have had a nice view Bruce. I know I need to work much harder at carrying more speed into the corners...trusting my car control skills, such as they are,
and rolling on the throttle sooner. Since these little cars we race make so much damn noise, it is very easy to hear what is going on with the throttle and I find the video I have recorded and
posted on vimeo, to be very helpful in "hearing" when I am off and on the throttle. Also, the tendency I have to downshift too soon. Really appreciating the comments....

[Cnj]

I'll take a shot at answering this - not because I am terribly fast, but certainly because I have thought about it a great deal and have steadily moved up the field since I started racing towards the front of the pack.

1. Learn the physics of car behaviour on track. Nothing happens on the track that is not governed by physics and the more you understand it the better off you are being able to adjust your driving. Without this understanding you can't run at threshold of adhesion at each point of the corner and without running at this adhesion point you will not be doing maximum speed.

2. Forget the "be on the brakes or be on the gas" story and focus on maximizing distributed tire adhesion. This may mean on occasion that you actually coast (ie. Neither accelerate nor brake) in the middle of a corner or on approach to apex. This is something I learned the hard way after comparing my data overlays to Jason Saini's and Eric Foss's. It's the speed you are going through the corner that counts, not whether the G loading feels good. On select corners I chant to my self "brake(hard), ease(off the brakes), pause(be patient), squeeze (the gas)". This stops me from jerking the car and let's me drive the tires closer to the edge.

3. Get data aquasition and spend a ton of time looking first at how you get on the brakes. Your deceleration curve should (in most corners - not fast sweepers) be like a cliff face, not a staggered hillside. Work on this till you consistently can hit threshold braking in one spike. I found I doubled tapped (and still do) and this screws up your weight transfer and loses you track space. Then work on how you come off the brake - which is even more important and your curve needs to be a smooth downhill curve with no jagged bits and a nice smooth ramp at the bottom. If you have or can get steering data (G will work too) then look at when the car is turning. The curves should overlap at the bottom of the braking in many corners (not all corners are trail brake corners). You asked what trail braking really looks like. You a trail braking well if there is a seamless transition of G longditutinal load to latitudinal load. Basically you are keeping the maximum tire adhesion all the way from braking through the turn. If you have any physics background, think of this in terms of a force vector diagram.

4. Get on the throttle only once in a corner and do it progressively. If you ever lift then you screwed up the entry and mid corner. It's very tempting to get on the throttle early and then lift slightly and then hit it again. Every book will tell you this and I still do it wrong and my data shows my mistake. Smooth is faster on the data. On that note I don't actualy buy the "scare your self every corner" plan. My best qualifying laps have not felt that hairy.

5. Use all the track. Well duh! Actually Eric Foss proved this to me by making me run several laps using every bit of the track and I shaved nearly half a second off my time. Made a believer out of me. Doesn't mean I do it though. Sigh.

6. Watch your hands in video. Due to the physics of cornering, in many corners (depending on the braking approach), you will be able to come off the brakes and simultaneously apply maximum turning all at once. After that brief moment all steering should be ether holding the line to the apex or opening your hands. In all cases a gentle opening of hands after the apex is the goal as you should be accelerating and if you are at maximum tire adhesion then by definition you need to reduce steering force. Do everything you can to reduce steering input, even if it is only a few degrees. This is particularly important when coming onto a long straight. A couple of the guys in Texas last year tested this at TMS and found that an adjustment of less than 3 degrees gave then 1mph extra speed and this is a big deal at TMS.

7. Finally work on consistency. As you move up towards the front of the race pack the hardest thing is not going fast, but making no mistakes. So practice making absolutely no mistakes. You can be half a second slower in quali and still beat people in front of you if you are consistent.

Hope this helps. Hope I listen to my own advice this season.

Craig J

[Bruce Wilson]

Great save to be sure...but quite honestly I would prefer, for me personally, to try and avoid those situations. I think I can handle a little wiggle from time to time, but that really did not
look like much fun! You must have had a nice view Bruce. I know I need to work much harder at carrying more speed into the corners...trusting my car control skills, such as they are,
and rolling on the throttle sooner. Since these little cars we race make so much damn noise, it is very easy to hear what is going on with the throttle and I find the video I have recorded and
posted on vimeo, to be very helpful in "hearing" when I am off and on the throttle. Also, the tendency I have to downshift too soon. Really appreciating the comments....

that certainly wasn't the fast line through T12. The point Spence and I are trying to get across is that to go fast, you will be driving very close to the edge all the time, and prepared (and equipped) to make the save when needed. Of course that is up to you and your comfort level, which changes as you increase your skill level.

-bw

[William Bonsell]

So true Craig regarding consistency. Great thoughts by the way. I don't know if being consistent can be measured by looking at lap times over the course of a race, but I do look at those times
and compare them from lap to lap. I find it amazing that on a 2+mile course, times can be turned within 1/100ths of a second. I've gotten into this quite late in life and have no expectations of
being a front runner. Don't have the talent nor the equipment, but I would like to be the best I can be and if that is a solid mid pack driver, who is consistent, and can be counted on by other drivers
to keep it together, than I am satisfied with that. We have a great racing community here in the Northwest with some very talented drivers. I treasure every moment on the track with them.

[Bruce Wilson]

I learned the hard way after comparing my data overlays to Jason Saini's and Eric Foss's. It's the speed you are going through the corner that counts, not whether the G loading feels good.
Craig J

Good aha moment for me too. Its all about adhesion, so what if it feels like that's all she can handle (G loading). Maybe that particular part of the track has a lot more grip.

Nice explanation Craig! Now if I could just put that perfect lap together.

-bw

[Bruce Wilson]

A Master at work

-bw

[Keith Novak]

Consistency cannot be determined by lap times alone. That is one thing data taught me very quickly.

The 1st time I overlayed a couple close laps to see what the one thing I changed between my fastest and the next fastest lap that accounted for the small time difference, I found that lots of differences over the entire course, each one greater than the overall lap time difference, tended to average out and fooled me that I was being consistent.

[Bruce Wilson]

And you end up throwing away consistency while you're learning to flog the car a bit harder and that's okay. The useful data is getting that theoretical best laptime close to the lap record, then see how close you start to get on your best rolling lap vs. theoritical best.

-bw

[Cnj]

So true Craig regarding consistency. Great thoughts by the way. I don't know if being consistent can be measured by looking at lap times over the course of a race, but I do look at those times
and compare them from lap to lap. I find it amazing that on a 2+mile course, times can be turned within 1/100ths of a second. I've gotten into this quite late in life and have no expectations of
being a front runner. Don't have the talent nor the equipment, but I would like to be the best I can be and if that is a solid mid pack driver, who is consistent, and can be counted on by other drivers
to keep it together, than I am satisfied with that. We have a great racing community here in the Northwest with some very talented drivers. I treasure every moment on the track with them.

A couple other random late night thoughts.

1. Read up on tire slip angle as it relates to the RA-1's. From this you will find that the best grip is actually not just before the tire starts to slip but after. What this means to the physics is that you have to technically drive the car just over the edge ALL the time to reach maximum grip. Paradoxical. Watch the really fast guys go through corners and you will see their front wheels are turned 2-4 degrees more than the corner before the apex. If the car is not moving under you just slightly in the turn then you are leaving speed on the table. The trick of course is to not go over the slip angle limit....

2. Always drive flat out (except for cool down lap and pace lap of course...). Other than making sure your brakes work, don't screw around with a warm up lap when you get on the track out of hot pits. Go for it. This will train you to deal with cold tires and give you tons of practice in handling starts when you don't really get to warm up (pace laps don't do a lot really). If you feel than you are getting tired during practice and not able to really go absolutely flat out, then pull into the pits and rest. The last thing you need to do is train your brain to accept driving at 90%. The only exception to this of course is if you are working on a particular exercise. Watch the fast guys at the beginning of quail. They get on it immediately while the mid pack guys dwaddle and sway back and forth across the track.

3. Age means nothing if you are fit. I race against a bunch of guys who are 20 years younger than me. Some I beat, some I don't. Some are more fit than me and a bunch are not fit at all. The older you are the more you need to work out....

4. Who needs top equipment? just go buy a 99. LOL.

Craig J

[William Bonsell]

So what Keith is saying is that laps can be very consistent in overall time, but be very inconsistent with respect to specific corners. I guess the perfect lap then is where each corner is consistently driven at
maximum adhesion resulting in the fastest time between entry and exit...and then to be able to do it over and over again throughout an entire race. I will give you a prime example of what was for me a pretty perfect lap
at PR this fall. In a 30 minute sprint race I had a lap that was just about a second faster than any of the other laps. I haven't a clue as to what I did or where I did it. Certainly a case where data might have come in handy.

So, without data, I am left with looking at lap times and how they stack up with other competitors. I will never quite know where I am good and where I suck. I am really going to look at this traction issue and spend a
bit more time trying to understand grip and how it is affected. If I can just hit the apex even 1mph faster, faster lap times are sure to follow....assuming I don't run out of pavement at exit....good grief.

And the link that Bruce sent of Stuck was terrific. I actually found his English voice over....very interesting! Seems to mention "late apex" several times. For me that is a big thing as I am a notorious early apex'r...not good, but then I am a work in progress (or so says my wife).

Craig - just saw your post a couple of minutes prior. Thanks so much for your comments. How did you know I "dwaddle" for a lap or so in practice and qualifying? No more...And I could certainly be fitter. Going to start working on that very soon.

Bill

[dstevens]

Fitness is a big deal, particularly as you get older. In 2008 I trained with Jim Leo at Pit Fit designing the workouts and it's the best shape I've been in since high school. I dropped about 40 lbs and had all kinds of stamina and a much sharper mental focus. I was doing about 12 hrs a week, a bit over the top for a middle aged hobby racer but I enjoyed it. You don't have to go nuts, even a half hour a day on a bike or elliptical is good. I was doing strength training, cardio, swimming and some reaction training specific to driving. I kept it up for about a year on my own after the year I spent with them then last year stopped. Time to get back to it.

[Kyle Burkhardt]

To me, the "scare yourself" bit has to do with carrying more speed into a corner than you are comfortable with, but finding that you can make the corner at that speed without heroics. The key is to repeat it until the faster corner entry becomes the norm. Then scare yourself again!

[Qik Nip]

Bill:
Lots of good advice here (and probably too much of it to internalize). In reading this thread I've come away with this sysnthesis...
> Scare yourself occasionally - especially on "that" corner where you get left behind.
> Learn what the car can do - try getting in the passenger seat at a HPDE with a fast SM pilot.
> Be sure the car's suspension is set up reasonaby. It's amazing what a 1/4" ride height can do!
> Get within a few HP of the pointy end guys. It's not as expensive as you might think.
> Really learn the tracks you run. Look at videos, get track time, follow fast guys when you can.
My last observation stems from the 10,000 hour rule that holds that to truly master complex tasks, most people need 10,000 hours of practice. While we aren't going to get that much seat time in our amateur careers, it still reinforces the value of time exposure in learning racecraft.
Rick

[Motor City Hamilton]

To me, the "scare yourself" bit has to do with carrying more speed into a corner than you are comfortable with, but finding that you can make the corner at that speed without heroics. The key is to repeat it until the faster corner entry becomes the norm. Then scare yourself again!

I don't know about this scare yourself in every corner stuff. You can still be in total control and drive really fast. Your fear level should come down with experience. I don't know how helpful it is to tell a beginner that you're slow if you're not scared. As a beginner, you probably have a bit of fear in all corners right now.

My driving instructors when I started spoke of 10 increments of attention. When you first start out, you are using 9/10s of holy crap, don't wreck this thing and 1/10th of where's the turn in or braking point, etc. As you get more experience, 5/10th is on holy crap am I going fast and 5/10s spent on other things; checking oil pressure, finding the apex, knowing where all cars are around you at all times. The most experienced racers are 1/10 or less on holy crap, don't kill myself and 9/10th's on other stuff; predicting where competitors are stronger or weaker, finding that last 0.1 seconds, manage these tires - no scrub, etc.

My advice is to really start to break down where you are slow and where you are the slowest. Data is a great idea, but not all of us can afford it. You'll have to find other ways to indicate your speed. It doesn't sound like you are to the level of really sorting a lap to find the last 1 second (data is huge for that). You mentioned trying to find 3+ seconds. You can improve a ton even without $1,000 in data. I was taught to work on two corners each session. Pick two sections of track where you know you are slower than your competitors, preferrably on each end of a track so that you have some time to think between sections. Go 85% in the session, but strive for 95+% in these two corners. Get faster, two corners at a time. Hint: probably smart to start with the corners leading onto the long straights. Your times will start dropping.

I'm a regional guy and usually in the top 10% of the field, so it's not that long ago that I started and on a thin budget. Every weekend I race, I still pick two corners to work on each race day. I'll go 99% everywhere else and really push, push, push to find a little bit more in those two chosen weak corners. At Mid-Ohio, those still are turn 1 and turn 12 leading into Thunder Valley. I know that's where my last half second sits.

One other great piece of advice I received when I was having difficulty picking up corner entry speed. Too worried about braking, downshifting, turn in, trail braking, etc. I was told to stop worring about doing all of these things at one time and to first work on side bite grip. For a corner dropping from 4th gear to 3rd, I was told not to downshift until I learn the entry speed the car can handle. Also, told not to try to dive the braking zone, just back it up a bit and worry about these later. My point is that in order to find the speed you have to break the corners down into smaller segment to work on that all add up to a fast drive through it. Start with corner entry speed, no downshifts and be early and easy on the brakes. Then move to hard braking and keeping that ideal corner entry speed. Then, finaly work on the downshift and the drive off the corner. This has worked for me.

[Motor City Hamilton]

Was going to add a story I heard about the 10 increments of attention.

One of the guys I work with did some TV commercial shoots with Jackie Stewart as the driver. During some down time Jackie told a story about a race at Monaco in the 70s. He was leading and a wreck happened at the exit of a completely blind corner. The track was essentially blocked and Jackie was right behind the wreck, but already past the flaggers. He slowed drastically and missed the wreck. My co-worker had asked how he knew the wreck was there. Jackie Stewart responded that when you are the leader, the crowd looks at you. Every lap at Monaco he looks at the crowd as part of his normal corner reference points. Noone was looking his way, so he knew there must have been a wreck around that blind corner.

0.1 increments of don't over drive this thing and 9.9 increments on going faster. Amazing.

[Scott Zetterstrom]

One quick technique that has helped me and you already own the equipment.

For a few key corners - starting with the fastest corner leading onto the longest straight.
Pick a spot at the exit of the corner, where the car is relatively settled and you are at full throttle. Many times the end of the track-out curbing works well. When the car gets to this spot check your speedometer. Do this every lap and you will notice that you don't carry the same speed every time. With practice you can determine what technique gets you the fastest exit speed and the feedback is instantaneous, which helps you practice good techniques versus bad ones. Also, by constantly checking your speed you will increase your consistency.

Good Luck!

[dstevens]

Sounds like Motor City Hamilton had the same kind of driver coaches I've had. I don't buy into the scare yourself approach either. Run your own pace, don't drive over your head and what I think is the most important, have fun!

[William Bonsell]

Yes, I have also read that as you hit that ultimate track out spot, take a quick look at the tach to see if revs are up a bit. I also have been doing some reading regarding the adhesion of RA-1's at max slip angle and the information seems to suggest that just past the maximum slip where the car begins to slide, that some extra grip is available. It is funny....I am so comfortable and so used to drifting (sliding) a car during high speed autocross, that you would think I would be a bit more comfortable with the car sliding through a high speed corner. Obviously, the speeds are noticeably higher in our racing, but the sensation of sliding the car is just as noticeable. I know that only seat time can develop the supreme confidence required to master both speed and race craft. I have been doing some things to prep the car a bit better starting with upgrading from a viscous to a Torsen diff. Also have bought ART front hubs and replaced rear bearings hoping to work on rolling resistance. A few other changes in store, but will leave my OEM motor with its fairly solid compression numbers alone until she "blows" and then $$. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and hope this thread has benefited other new drivers as much as it has me.

Bill

[Charlie Hayes]

Awesome thread.