39 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

For Butch to get everyone's opinion and then do what he wanted to do in the first place. It's just like the federal government. The few in power make the decisions for the rest of us who are just too ignorant to know better.

[Butch Kummer]

What was the purpose of this poll?

Terry Clements

1. To let everyone know I was considering options
2. To see if their was a clear cut opinion one way or the other

I recognize that a 2-1 vote for RA-1 could be seen as "clear cut", but there are also a significant percentage that voted for the SM-6.

I'm sure I'll regret this as soon as I hit the enter key, but my job is available to anyone that feels they can do a better job. At last year's ARRC by GRM I announced 2011 would be my last year as Competition Director of Atlanta Region, then things went so well at our March Double National that I realized I was REALLY just tired of being on the Region's Board of Directors. Depending on who gets nominated for RE (Tere Pulliam is stepping down this year) I'll offer to continue as Comp.Director, I just don't want to attend BoD meetings any longer.

The nominations meeting is October 22 at the Club Office - you're certainly welcome to attend.

You're also certainly welcome to boycott further Atlanta Region events!

[dstevens]

Why would we care what tire you qualify on? I don't? I'll support whatever, but seems like a lot of grief for nothing? What are you trying to accomplish?

Not commenting one way or the other on the rule, have no dog in this hunt. It's common in many forms of racing, both pro and amateur to have to race on the same tires that are used for qualifying. One of the benefits (or so they say) is that it keeps guys from spending money buying multiple sets of tires to use for quals and racing. Though that's not to say they not spend the money elsewhere. Some series even go as far as to limit the number of tires you can buy in a season and dictate the supplier. Some may not wish to hear this from an SM noob like me but comparatively speaking ya'll have some of the least restrictive tire rules in amateur racing.

[Jim Drago]

Dave
I am aware of that, but you can easily qualify and race on one set of Hoosiers or Toyos. I dont see anyone using a new set each session.
Jim

[Danny Steyn]

Butch

IMHO you are doing the right thing. As always, most of the whining will once again come from those that are not competing.

In the past 3 years I have raced Hoosiers at Road Atlanta on about 8-10 occassions and RA-1's on about 15-20. Hoosiers are spectacular from T1 - T7. Hoosiers have MUCH better corner adhesion and if driven properly, they gain you about 0.5- 0.7 seconds over the RA-1's. Unfortunately the RA-1's have MUCH better rolling resistance, and gain it all back from T7 to T10A and from T10B to T1 (no matter how you drive). And most of the passing opportunities are at the entry to T10A and T1.

Personally I dont care what anyone runs during the race or during qualifying. I dont mind if they run different tires for both. There is no lap time to be made with the Hoosiers. Any track with 5th gear straights will probably be the same.

We just returned from Barber Motorsports Park this past weekend where many of us ran Hoosiers for the Pro-IT and RA-1's for the SARRC. Barber is a twisty track with no long straights. You only touch 100MPH briefly on one straight and only touch 90MPH on three others. Here the Hoosier was about 0.3 secs faster.

And Butch. You are one of the very few race directors that ever comes to our forum to ask us what we think about anything. The overwhelming majority of racers that race at Atlanta really appreciate your insight and your dedication. Dont let any of the BS on this forum get to you. Just brush it off.

[Blake Clements]

Jim,
Will keep people from playing tire switcharoo and hopefully keep costs down. Might as well have gone open tire, because its essentially what we have?

What keeps someone from tossing a set of A6/R6/whatever on the car from qualifying if no one is checking? I seem to remember someone trying to sneak out on Hoosiers in an ARRC Enduro 2-3 years ago? There must obviously be some benefit.

Butch,
I am just going to ignore your rant, a bit unfounded, I think. I ran in Atlanta Region for the past three years, as a driver of Atlanta Region some of those years. I know what you are trying to accomplish with the transition to Hoosier, but the rule was for 2012 and should be left for 2012. Some of us don't fly by the seat of our pants and have already bought allocations of tires for the ARRC and rest of the season and now are scratching our heads.

The tire rules can work, but like ANYTHING, you need to manage it properly or it turns into the wild wild west.

Blake

[Butch Kummer]

Blake,

My first impulse is to say "Rant? You haven't SEEN me rant yet!" but that would be counter-productive. When somebody posts crap like this, however:

For Butch to get everyone's opinion and then do what he wanted to do in the first place. It's just like the federal government. The few in power make the decisions for the rest of us who are just too ignorant to know better.

...it's hard not to take it personally. My position (along with it's outrageous compensation package) is open to anyone that cares to apply.

Quite simply, I believe requiring only the RA-1 will cost us (Atlanta Region) overall SM entries compared to allowing the R-888 and SM-6 as well. I base this off discussions with various people both here and at the track, plus the belief of very experienced and successful drivers that the RA-1 is truly the best option for Road Atlanta.

I will add a rule in the Supps that SM & SM2 drivers need to participate on the same choice of tires for both qualifying sessions plus the race. We'll have someone on the Grid for qualifying session #1 to record what tire each car is going out on. If that changes in session #2 you lose times from session #1. If that changes for the race, you lose ALL qualifying times (and start from the back). In other words, you make your choice early and stay with it.

Pro-IT is an open tire series, so that doesn't count. Even though the Three Hour is part of the 2012 ECR series no one appears to have taken the initiative in creating a transition period for those rules, so only the R-888 & RA-1 will be allowed in that race.

Is that an acceptable compromise?

[Blake Clements]

Blake,

My first impulse is to say "Rant? You haven't SEEN me rant yet!" but that would be counter-productive. When somebody posts crap like this, however:



...it's hard not to take it personally. My position (along with it's outrageous compensation package) is open to anyone that cares to apply.

Quite simply, I believe requiring only the RA-1 will cost us (Atlanta Region) overall SM entries compared to allowing the R-888 and SM-6 as well. I base this off discussions with various people both here and at the track, plus the belief of very experienced and successful drivers that the RA-1 is truly the best option for Road Atlanta.

I will add a rule in the Supps that SM & SM2 drivers need to participate on the same choice of tires for both qualifying sessions plus the race. We'll have someone on the Grid for qualifying session #1 to record what tire each car is going out on. If that changes in session #2 you lose times from session #1. If that changes for the race, you lose ALL qualifying times (and start from the back). In other words, you make your choice early and stay with it.

Pro-IT is an open tire series, so that doesn't count. Even though the Three Hour is part of the 2012 ECR series no one appears to have taken the initiative in creating a transition period for those rules, so only the R-888 & RA-1 will be allowed in that race.

Is that an acceptable compromise?

Seems reasonable Butch.

Blake

[William Keeling]

damn I was going to qualify on shaved H2Os

[MPR22]

[quote name='Butch Kummer' timestamp='1315315360' post='12991']
Blake,

My first impulse is to say "Rant? You haven't SEEN me rant yet!" but that would be counter-productive. When somebody posts crap like this, however:



...it's hard not to take it personally. My position (along with it's outrageous compensation package) is open to anyone that cares to apply.


Dear Mr. Kummer,


You may call my post "crap" but it sure smacks of the truth or you would have never taken the bait.

What I consistently see in the SCCA and other volunteer organizations from the top down is the following mentality: I volunteered my time and you didn't so you have to live with my decisions. My other favorite, that you went to so easily,
If someone else wants the job by all means please take it.

These are copouts and are indicative of someone who takes on a position for personal esteem not to make the organization better.

Even though many of these organizations are non profit and run by volunteers the customers expect a reasonable set of rules to follow, and expect the organization to follow its own rules. This does not always happen, see the SM race at the June Sprints 2011. Likewise when we are asked by the race director of an upcoming race what tire rule we prefer and a majority vote on a specific tire, we kind of expect that tire to be the spec tire for the race.

Again, it is your decision to make but don't be surprised when you get pointed complaints when you call for a vote and go against the vote. I believe you honestly tried to make the right decision, you may very well have made the right decision.

Responding to the complaints with "You're also certainly welcome to boycott further Atlanta Region events!" is a poor response to your customers. On one hand you are saying you made your decisions on what will bring the highest turnout for the event and a few posts later you tell us please don't attend our events.

I wish you well and hope your 2011 ARRC is everything you want it to be.

Michael Ross
Just Another Whiner (that’s for you Danny)

[Butch Kummer]

Mr. Ross,

I'm pretty sure I don't know you (I searched our event results from the past three years and was unable to find your name), so I'll apologize in public and will refrain from making judgemental comments about your posts going forward.

I'm also pretty confident you don't know me either, so I'll respectfully ask that you not make comments about my motivations or integrity. The SM tire decision for this year's ARRC by GRM was not one that I took lightly and, as I said in one of my subsequent posts, this poll was only part of the input that was considered while making that decision.

Butch Kummer

[Mark Zwolle]

I think we can all live with the three tire options that you've listed. This option supports the tires I saw on the grid over the last few years.

In my opinion marking and tracking tires is not a good idea, many of us have multiple sets of tires in various states of wear and intend to use each set for individual sessions and then run the best set for the race - I hope to go home with a trailer full of totally worn out tires and marking and tracking tires between sessions and then racing on the same tires will probably force me to buy a new set of tires.

If we are going to start making regulations like that why not make a rule that takes away the qualification times for guys that change an engine, transmission, clutch or diff after qualifing? You know it wouldn't be to far fetched to think there's a guy out there that would show up with a cheater motor, a light weight flywheel and pressure plate, a six speed transmission or a diff with a different gear or all of the above and then after qualifing change to legal parts for the race...

This is not Nascar, Indy or F1 and it's not for a division championship... It's for fun and bragging rights so let's stop trying to regulate the fun out of this race...


Mark Zwolle

[Butch Kummer]

Mark,

You won't need to run on the same tires, just the same model. i.e. - if you start out on RA-1s you need to run RA-1s for both qualifying sessions and the race. No qualifying on Hoosiers and then swapping to Toyos for the race.

And yes, it's entirely possible that folks could follow the time-honored practice of building a super-loose, two-lap qualifying engine and then swapping it out for the race. You can't prevent people that want to spend money from doing so.

[Mark Zwolle]

Sounds like a good plan and it should silence the crazy talk of switching tires between qualifying and the race...

But, I think it's allot of work for nothing. The ARRC has had drivers on Hoosier, R-888, and RA-1's for the last few years and I haven't seen anyone make any time by switching tires between sessions. The opposite in fact, I had to make a swap between RA-1's and Hoosiers before. I flat spotted the RA-1's I was running on and had to switch to a set of borrowed Hoosiers (two sessions) and ended up running slower. This is the only thing with this rule that bothers me. I guarantee that the Hoosier trailer won't have any unclaimed RA-1's for sale so if you qualify on RA-1's and have to buy a new set of tires you’re going to lose your times...

The RA-1's and Hoosiers are just to close for all the trouble, with the set up change required and difference in the way you have to drive them I don't think it would pay off to switch between sessions.

But I think we all appreciate your effort to make everyone happy... You're doing a great job...

[Danny Steyn]

Butch - I think that you are making it difficult for yourself - I dont believe that there is any need to police the tires between Qualifying and Race. If they qualify on Hoosiers and race on Toyos, or visa versa, I have no issue.

I believe there will be three agendas at the ARRC for the top runners

• WIn the ARRC
• Run out all your old TOYOS
• Get use to the Hoosiers before the 2012 National season starts in January

I think that they all are totally compatible and unfortunately only ONE has the chance of doing all three!!!!

[Butch Kummer]

Butch - I think that you are making it difficult for yourself - I dont believe that there is any need to police the tires between Qualifying and Race. If they qualify on Hoosiers and race on Toyos, or visa versa, I have no issue.

Some people DO have concerns, however, so we have made arrangements to record tire choices during each of the ARRC Championship sessions - both Friday qualifiers and Saturday's race. You don't need to run the same tires all three sessions, but you DO need to be on the same model tire (R-888, RA-1, or SM-6).

And now that I've moved the Big Noise cars from Group 6 to Group 2, I will probably be the one on the Grid checking which tires you are on!

[Mike Collins]

Butch, I don't understand??? Why all the fuss? I have been coming to the ARRC for years. I missed last year. It has always been Hoosier or Toyo. It did not matter what you qualified on or raced on. We qualified on one of each and then picked for the race (based on who gave us the best deal ). I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think you are thinking to hard about this one. I know for a fact Blake and others have been there when it was open tire. Maybe they didn't know or didn't care so I am not sure why people all of the sudden some folks care now.

[Blake Clements]

Butch, I don't understand??? Why all the fuss? I have been coming to the ARRC for years. I missed last year. It has always been Hoosier or Toyo. It did not matter what you qualified on or raced on. We qualified on one of each and then picked for the race (based on who gave us the best deal ). I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think you are thinking to hard about this one. I know for a fact Blake and others have been there when it was open tire. Maybe they didn't know or didn't care so I am not sure why people all of the sudden some folks care now.

I have only been to the ARRC in 2009 and it was NOT open tire. I ran on R888s, and what a terrible mistake that was.

And on the tires, you guys can honestly do whatever the he!! you want. I don't trust people not to try and sneak in Hoosier A6/R6 in for a hot qual lap or something if no one is checking tires and compounds. Someone tried to sneak Hoosiers in the ARRC Enduro in 2009!

I'm done.

[Butch Kummer]

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY think you are thinking to hard about this one.

Better to think too hard than not think hard enough.

Bottom line - you need to run both Group 5 qualifiers and the Group 5 race on the same tire model. If you're waffling on which tire is best you'll have four sessions during the test day and/or the Pro-IT sessions to make a decision.

And it's true we ran an open-tire rule for a number of years but that differentiated ASM from SM to get around the "No Runoffs drivers" rule once SM went National. Past discussions on these forums have made it clear the majority of SM drivers want one tire for both Regional and National competition.

Also remember this is a one-year deal brought on by the SCCA's transition to Hoosiers in 2012.

The decision has been made and the compliance procedure is in place - I'll no longer entertain discussion on this topic.

[Mike Collins]

Blake is correct in 2009 it was RA1 OR R888. In all previous years it was open.