93 replies to this topic

[Pete]

Bruce Wilson, on 10-07-2011 12:45 PM, said:

Dan, could you be more specific on what people are thinking. Was there a deformation of the seat that caused some of the injuries? Also I've looked at many full containment seat mounts in SM and I'm still not sure the left side can be effective since the roll bar is in the way. Has anybody considered installing a left side driver net? Those seem to have growing popularity in the pro ranks.

Hope you're feeling better soon David!!

-bw

Obviously, a valuable discussion, but it belongs in its own thread in the Safety forum. Would like to keep this thread clear for further updates on Dave's condition. Besides, any safety improvement discussions deserve the full MR.com audience, and for archival in the correct location.

NOTE: Charlie Hayes reported that Dave did NOT have a containment seat, but wore a DefnDer.

I decided to start a new thread to discuss seat safety. I have raced with a kirkey seat (economy style) for the last five years. I liked the way it came around my torso to keep me in place. Unfortunately this was also my undoing when I hit the concrete wall at Laguna on the drivers side in June. All of my weight was stopped by the side of the seat causing two rib fractures. I have been worried about side impacts and had a right side net installed. Since I am tall, my helmet rests against the padded upper roll bar on the left, which stopped my head movement in the crash. I use a Hans.

Fortunately I had no injuries to my head or spine, just my ribs. Davids crash earlier this month at Lagnua sounds like a similar, but harder impact. Thankfully he appears to be improving well, but did sustain some serious injuries. I can't help but wonder what changes to the seat/car could have prevented them. In my own mind I have decided that my seat as it is now is not safe enough. I am in the process of putting in a full containment seat which I believe would have prevented my injuries. I had not thought of adding the left side net although this seems like a good idea. Thoughts???

Pete

[Ron Alan]

I'm confused...don't we have a left side drivers net? Or what we call window net is not a drivers net? Actually another net between the driver and window net? Though I imagine the Hans allows for way less head movement side to side...the Halo/full containment seat is next on our list!

So does the combination of the Hans and a halo seat negate the need for a right or left drivers net...at least by rule(Pro Orgs?)

[Bruce Wilson]

My PM to Dan follows:

"I'm planning to start another thread soon. But you definitly want to do your research first. I've always knew that the left side of the seat is the most dangerous in a Miata and that a big enough hit might be life threatening. I have done a lot of looking at top prepared cars for many years and ALL of the halo seats I've looked at are not going to help (much) because your head will always hit the roll bar before hitting the halo.

In most cases the window net is tight against the left halo and so Ive come to the (conclusion) that the left side is not any more safer with halo than just with a window net. It is also very interesting that most of the Grand Am and World Challenge in car cameras show no full containment seat but a driver side net on both sides (in addition to the window net). I'm convinced that there are (currently) two viable solutions that would be much better than any of the current composite halo seats on the market. The first is the Miatacage carbon fiber seat, which Sean has been prototyping (but isn't in productin yet). Sean's seat has a special left side halo that fits in flush with the roll bar. The seat is still under development but will be in production soon. The second option is to fit a driver side net on both sides properly installed so that the center of the helment hits the top of the net before contacting the roll bar."

I encourage everyone to do their research before just going with just any halo seat. Go look at in car videos of Grand Am and World Challenge to see what they are using. In some cases they are using driver side nets (both) without halo seats which I find very intersting. Like any/all safety equipment, proper installation of a side net is key to how effective the device will be when needed. If a left side net can be installed with the top strap intersecting the middle of the helment (per instructions), then I believe it will be much more effective and prevent possible fractures due to the top of the helment hitting the bar potentially several inches before hitting the left side halo and/or window net.

-bw

[Bruce Wilson]

I'm confused...don't we have a left side drivers net? Or what we call window net is not a drivers net? Actually another net between the driver and window net? Though I imagine the Hans allows for way less head movement side to side...the Halo/full containment seat is next on our list!

So does the combination of the Hans and a halo seat negate the need for a right or left drivers net...at least by rule(Pro Orgs?)

Ron, there is very interesting video (maybe someone can dig that video out again?) of a halo seat substantially bending out of the way in a hard side impact. And that is why you always, or should always see a side net snug against the halo, with the exception of Nasacar where the halo is very stout and integrated into the car from what I can tell.

[Kyle Keenan]

Another thing that should be mentioned, is how it's mounted. I've seen some terribly mounted seats, most notably someone who did not use any washers on the seat OR the floor pan. Car got hit, bolt ripped through the floor of the car no problem.

Here's the Grand-Am net The Bruce was talking about:

https://www.safecraf...grandAMnets.php

[Glenn]

My PM to Dan follows:

"I'm planning to start another thread soon. But you definitly want to do your research first. I've always knew that the left side of the seat is the most dangerous in a Miata and that a big enough hit might be life threatening. I have done a lot of looking at top prepared cars for many years and ALL of the halo seats I've looked at are not going to help (much) because your head will always hit the roll bar before hitting the halo.

In most cases the window net is tight against the left halo and so Ive come to the (conclusion) that the left side is not any more safer with halo than just with a window net. It is also very interesting that most of the Grand Am and World Challenge in car cameras show no full containment seat but a driver side net on both sides (in addition to the window net). I'm convinced that there are (currently) two viable solutions that would be much better than any of the current composite halo seats on the market. The first is the Miatacage carbon fiber seat, which Sean has been prototyping (but isn't in productin yet). Sean's seat has a special left side halo that fits in flush with the roll bar. The seat is still under development but will be in production soon. The second option is to fit a driver side net on both sides properly installed so that the center of the helment hits the top of the net before contacting the roll bar."

I encourage everyone to do their research before just going with a halo seat. Go look at in car videos of Grand Am and World Challenge to see what they are using. In some cases they are using driver side nets (both) without halo seats which I find very intersting. Like any/all safety equipment, proper installation of a side net is key to how effective the device will be when needed. If a left side net can be installed with the top strap intersecting the middle of the helment (per instructions), then I believe it will be much more effective and prevent possible fractures due to the top of the helment hitting the bar several inches before hitting the left side halo and/or window net.

-bw

Left side window net is to keep your arms inside of the car, PERIOD. A halo seat that hits the roll bar is POORLY installed and shoild be corrected or the bar modified. Rigt side nets are seldom placed to serve any purpose other than to meet a rule requirement. I have raced with Butler Built seats and my head was NO WHERE near the roll bar.

As long as we are discussing, that spongy bar wrap used by most folks is useless as well. The only suitable protection is the high density padding, IE the HARD stuff. All others will fully compress and allow you helmet to strike the bar.

[Bruce Wilson]

Left side window net is to keep your arms inside of the car, PERIOD. A halo seat that hits the roll bar is POORLY installed and shoild be corrected or the bar modified. Rigt side nets are seldom placed to serve any purpose other than to meet a rule requirement. I have raced with Butler Built seats and my head was NO WHERE near the roll bar.

As long as we are discussing, that spongy bar wrap used by most folks is useless as well. The only suitable protection is the high density padding, IE the HARD stuff. All others will fully compress and allow you helmet to strike the bar.

Glenn, I want to make sure we are all talking about the same thing. The scenario I described was not the halo hitting the roll bar, but extending past the upper left side roll bar. And in pretty much every case I've seen (with Sparco and Racetech seats), an average height driver WILL hit the upper side roll bar long before coming into contact with the left halo, and therefore the neck will come under considerable amount of tension as a result. Can you share some pictures with driver in seat?

After viewing video of a full containment seat bending out of the way during a heavy side impact, I disagree with your theory that right side nets are only there for rules compliance (maybe not with the Butler model you use?). I believe there must be a good reason that a lot of sanctioning bodies have a side net rule as opposed to a full containment seat rule.

-bw

[Glenn]

Glenn, I want to make sure we are all talking about the same thing. The scenario I described was not the halo hitting the roll bar, but extending past the upper left side roll bar. And in pretty much every case I've seen, an average height driver WILL hit the upper side roll bar long before coming into contact with the left halo, and therefore the neck will come under considerable amount of tension as a result. Can you share some pictures with driver in seat?

After viewing video of a full containment seat bending out of the way during a heavy side impact, I disagree with your theory that right side nets are only there for rules compliance. I believe there must be a good reason that a lot of sanctioning bodies have a side net rule as opposed to a full containment seat rule.

-bw

Brucee I said Placement of the rt side net, mostly I have seen are too low to be effective unless shoulder placement is the intent. The Butler Built seat I raced was the same as the NASCAR guys run, sorry no video.

[Ron Alan]

Left side window net is to keep your arms inside of the car, PERIOD. A halo seat that hits the roll bar is POORLY installed and shoild be corrected or the bar modified. Rigt side nets are seldom placed to serve any purpose other than to meet a rule requirement. I have raced with Butler Built seats and my head was NO WHERE near the roll bar.

As long as we are discussing, that spongy bar wrap used by most folks is useless as well. The only suitable protection is the high density padding, IE the HARD stuff. All others will fully compress and allow you helmet to strike the bar.

Window net vs left side driver net?? 2 different things correct??

The right side net absolutely serves a purpose...your intent may be an incorrectly installed right side net is pointless? EDIT...missed a word! on the same page

I have seen the video your speaking of Bruce...the halo looked like a homemade piece of tin bolted on. I would hope the current composite one piece/seat halos wouldn't break like this.

[Bruce Wilson]

Glenn, since you seem to have a workable solution, a simple photo of seat with proximity to bar would sure help. Also which model of seat and halo part numbers if they come seperate?

-bw

[Bruce Wilson]

I have seen the video your speaking of Bruce...the halo looked like a homemade piece of tin bolted on. I would hope the current composite one piece/seat halos wouldn't break like this.

Yeah, but from what I remember it looked very much like one or two of the Buttler (older?) models, so it is important we know which model Glenn is using. In that case someone bought a seat in hopes of a good solution and it was clearly not.

-bw

[Bruce Wilson]

click on the youtube logo and view in full screen to see the left side net work (in rear-view) during the nuclear bump-draft.

In car footage of Continental car utilizing two side nets. I've seen a number of these vids and I'm wondering if the reason for no halo is the concern about egress. Certainly another thing to consider.

-bw

[Glenn]

Yeah, but from what I remember it looked very much like one or two of the Buttler (older?) models, so it is important we know which model Glenn is using. In that case someone bought a seat in hopes of a good solution and it was clearly not.

-bw

Bruce it was an older Butler custom Built for Bobby T. As I understand the new seats are much wider. I am exploring using one in my new build but will most likely wind up with the Kerkey Full Containment

[Gatoratty]

I looked at the Sportsman Butlerbuilt seat that George Munson put in his 99 build last fall and then went shopping at the PRI show last Dec. I spoke with every seat manufacturer from Racetech to LaJoie and ended up talking to Howard Butler for 90 min about full containment seats and aluminum vs FIA type seats. What I came away with was an education of energy dissipation and spinal alignment in a crash. Specifically a side impact. Butler took their Sportsman full containment seat and modified the upper portion based upon measurements of my body to ensure spinal alignment in a crash. He talked to me about padding not only taking away from car feel and control, but also affecting the alignment in a crash as the padding compresses. My seat has the rib protectors and everything is welded as an integral part of the seat. If you call him he will take the time to explain all of it to you. He also explained the difference to me in the Kirkey and ultrashield seats. Basically the Butler is hand built vs a high production assembly line seat. I am finally installing mine, but I am sure George can tell you how his fit.

[Bruce Wilson]

Paul, that is really cool. There are some really good seats out there and custom would be even better. I think the challenge for most folks is fitting the upper part of the seat/halo within thier existing cage dimensions. I'm guessing the only reason someone hasn't built a good SM full containment seat is the difference in upper bar mounting. One inch this way or that and the seat won't fit or won't be square with the car. What cage do you have and can you post pics of your configuration?

-bw

[Charlie Hayes]

I have also seen Sprint Cars with both R/L side "center" nets with a non full containment seat. If installed properly they can do the same job. Thing that sucks about the miata is real estate inside that cockpit with anyone over 4'9".

[CruzanTom]

I looked at the Sportsman Butlerbuilt seat that George Munson put in his 99 build last fall and then went shopping at the PRI show last Dec. . . . My seat has the rib protectors and everything is welded as an integral part of the seat. If you call him he will take the time to explain all of it to you. He also explained the difference to me in the Kirkey and ultrashield seats. Basically the Butler is hand built vs a high production assembly line seat. I am finally installing mine, but I am sure George can tell you how his fit.

In what price range did you end up? I am thinking about a new seat and need to know how much to budget.

Tom

[Gatoratty]

The Butler Sportsman seat is around $675-700. The shipping added $140 from the factory. They have dealers all over the country where you can try the seat and buy it with no shipping.

[CruzanTom]

The Butler Sportsman seat is around $675-700. The shipping added $140 from the factory. They have dealers all over the country where you can try the seat and buy it with no shipping.

Thanks. I think my head (and ribs) are worth that.

[Glenn]

FYI I got a quote for a BB Advantage II Sportsman yesterday, closer to $1600.00 depending if custom or off the shelf.